From: Annie (annie@geekbabe.com)
Date: Wed Jun 19 2002 - 07:53:00 CDT
In this mailing:
Org List
Boardwalk update, hotels, transportation
Timing and hotel issues
Schedule Discussion, Personal Time Scheduling
Activities and payments
More DLVORG thoughts
Cheapovegas
Dates
Administrivia
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Org List:
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Boardwalk update, hotels, transportation:
Mindy writes:
>well here is an update on the boardwalk situation.. i had a long
>conversatsion with denise and nick (dirc. or sec.) and denise is fired
>up to resolve the situation but nick decided to kick it upstairs. the
>next step is denise is taking the mailings to the general manager along
>with spending figures from dlv as well as estimated spending for next
>year if they adopt a t positive policy. given the feedback from the
>memembers i told her that a printed positive policy would be the only
>way memebers would book in mass next year.
>she agrees with me that if they dont do a written policy we have to
>assume that we will be treated inconsistantly at best. with luck we
>will have some feedback from management in the next couple of weeks in
>more then enough time to put the green, yellow or red light on the
>boardwalk.
Thanks, Mindy. Please keep us informed on this.
>on other hotel choices. san remo, tropicanna, monte carlo, and ny ny
>would seem to be good on or near strip choices. we might also consider
>a couple of the trop and near the stip motels such as howard johnsons.
>due to the majority of our activities being in the southeast part of
>town transportaion from that area is much less of an issue..
Well, the majority of our activities were in the southeast part of town
for DLV 2002, but ... things change. I don't see any problems with San
Remo, Trop, or MC since they're aimed at grownups and each have a good
reputation. NYNY does get more kids than the others, however, and our
people have told us over and over that they would rather be at places
that did not have many kids.
>transportation.. heres my idea.. the limo company we used for the tour
>also has multi passanger vans with professional drivers (i think the
>hold 12 to 24 people) for about the same rate as the limos.. we could
>consider setting up a schedule for major events and getting donations
>for the cost or selling tickets in advance for transportation.. this
>will solve the milage problems.. the drunk driving problems and the
>public transportation problems.. if there is interest i can look into
>it and get some idea of how best to arrange it..
I would say yes, definitely look into this. If a 12 passenger van goes
for $49 an hour, and each trip takes one hour, that's $4 and change per
passenger, assuming a full load. We would have to be sure enough seats
would be sold so that nobody would take a bath.
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Timing and hotel issues:
>>>Also 1st May to the 6th, 7th and or 8th would be fine with me.
>>Ok, {mark} one vote for the later timeframe. :)
>I think I would prefer the earlier week. Main reason that it's
>cooler.
Ok, {mark} one vote for the earlier timeframe. :) (Keeping in mind that
these "votes" are unofficial, and that we may call for a formal vote in
the case we can't reach a consensus.)
>>>I noticed we don't have a lot of early morning activities ...
>>Very true. DLV people tend to stay up late and rise late. We have had a
[deletia magna]
>>you will get a much better turnout for this departing in the late
>>morning, no earlier than 10:30 or so. That's about the earliest we
[snip-paste]
>>Comments, ladies?
>We should do morning things very carefully.
[cut-paste]
>I suggest noon for the earliest we want to schedule any
>main event. At Diva I find that I go to bed later and later as the time
>goes by. This means get up later and later. This year I put in a wake
>call for ten, in case I didn't wake up earlier, and most of the time
>I didn't. I'd laze around and really get up at 11. Go get coffee in
>drab, then get ready and it was 2 or even later before I was really
>ready.
. . . . .
>As for hotel, I was perfectly happy at Sahara and I plan on staying
>there myself for Diva 2003. My only complaint is that they didn't have
>in room coffee. I think some rooms did, but mine didn't. Besides the
>swill that some hotels call coffee can make you pine for Starbuck's.
I so very seldom drink coffee that I honestly don't remember if there
was a coffee maker in the room or not. :) I'll usually have a soda early
in the morning, and I either grabbed one from the machine down the hall
or from the gift shop, which was cheaper.
>As for rides, I never had any trouble catching one. I sometimes rode
>with you and sometimes with that other girl from Calif. who's name
>escapes me. That one night I was worried that I couldn't catch a
>ride back, but I found someone, actually two.
The more I think about it, and think back to DLV, there were very few
cases of somebody needing a ride and not getting one. If transportation
were indeed a major issue, I think the survey would have reflected this.
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Schedule Discussion, Personal Time Scheduling
Tina writes:
<snip>
>>It appears that we have two viable options for DLV 2003, with possible
>>extensions, and variations on each.
>>1. Tuesday, April 22 thru Sunday, April 27. Obvious extensions would be
>>2. Thursday, May 1 thru Tuesday, May 6. Extensions include a Wednesday
[bobbitt]
>We've done each model (#1 is the "end on a weekend" model, and #2 is
>the "straddle the weekend" model) successfully multiple times at past
>DLVs.
>I particularly liked 2002's longer ramp-up towards the bigger events.
>The smaller startup events gave more social time for early arrivals
>to get to know each other, and left more days for things like the
>beauty/fashion open houses.
>So, I personally think option #1 makes more sense, including starting
>on Tuesday and ending on Sunday, with mention of the fact that there
>will probably be unofficial informal get-togethers on the bracketing
>Mondays for those with travel schedule flexibility.
{mark} Another in the #1 column. :)
>The biggest problem with option #2 is that it requires you to take off
>from work for part of two separate weeks. Many leave after the
>weekend, even if more events are scheduled. Every year, we heard from
>some who say they wish they had stayed for more. For publicity to new
>girls, ending on a weekend makes more sense. It's logical, makes the
>festivities look like they end with a big bang. As they get into DLV
>more in subsequent years, they can worry later about the subtleties of
>dealing with Monday/Tuesday stayovers for more social time.
Personally, I'm leaning toward the earlier Tues-Sun timeframe. Several
reasons, but this does have the Big Bang weekend, and allows people to
extend in advance or on the spur of the moment without running into the
Mothers Day weekend. Plus, it leads right into N+I, so those extending
will know that others will be there.
I do think the argument of cooler weather is valid too.
. . . . .
>Personal Scheduling:
>>>1. Too many activities in too short a time. Not enough time to get
>>>ready and get there. Back-to-back activities with no freshen-up time.
[cut-paste]
>>>What I'm saying is you need a good three-hour break each and every
>>>day between the daytime events and the evening events.
>I have the same problem and agree with you. Completely fresh makeup
>just looks and feels so much better. Unfortunately, not everybody
>needs this type of break, so if we're going to plan things like more
>formal cocktail receptions before dinner or early shows, we won't be
>able to have such a big gap later in the day. I handle this by
>planning my personal schedule with that break, which usually means I
>skip the group dinner. (Many were shocked that I actually made it to
>one in 2002.)
>Alternatively, I sometimes have to choose to skip the afternoon
>activity or (gasp) go in boy-mode. DLV schedules aren't designed to
>let anybody less than Supergirl attend each and every function on the
>schedule. Mere mortals have to take a break sometime. :-)
I do think the point has been made that we need to be a bit more
accommodating wrt freshen-up time between the daytime and evening
activities. With this in place, fewer people will have to sacrifice to
freshen up.
>Seriously, the choice does come down to a philosophical decision of
>offering less things that you think everyone will attend, or offering
>more things that will provide a wider variety of choices for our
>ever-increasing attendance base.
>DLV people have made the latter choice by stepping up and volunteering
>to organize these extra activities.
>People want them and show up at them. As you probably know, we
>actually had a little trouble finding places to put things in 2002. We
>had to double-track some things (example: golf and SBS). That trend
>will probably grow if attendance continues to increase.
I do agree that our people prefer more options, and that we are moving
(in the right direction) of offering a wider variety of choices.
Granted, not everything appeals to everybody. During the day, some
choose to whack at balls with sticks, others prefer to have a drink and
a chat and drop coins in slots. Each to his/her own.
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Activities and payments:
Yvonne writes:
>As this group decides on what activities DLV 2003 does, lets try NOT to
>create a situation where volunteer/s have any financial loss at any DLV
>activity which can lead to mis-understanding and very much hurt
>feelings about volunteering again, or may prevent suggesting good ideas
>for events, or prevent staying actively involved with planning DLV.
Agreed, 100%.
>Maybe we need to set some basic criteria list for planning or ways of
>communicating details of the event, such as cost, accessability, and
>interest for each DLV event(s), occuring/conflicting with DLV events at
>the same time, or might affect other back-to-back DLV events (ie late
>night activity with a early morning one the next day).... so that
>possible oversights like limited access and parking would be discovered
>by this discussion and planning group.
>I know we do alot of this already through the discussions and list of
>events at the end of each newsletter, head counts, but maybe, and I'm
>just suggesting, that we create some sort of basic guidelines for those
>who want to plan an DLV event, so that important points of the event is
>covered/discussed. It may also be helpful to the planner(s), as they
>plan the event (ie items that they would have never considered in
>planning a event).
I think the criteria have already been established, if there is a risk
that one of us will take a financial bath, advance payment is required.
>I know that each event had a number of no-shows of those that signed up
>for them. But those that had some sort of payment schedule had a better
>turn-out, such as the LaFemme and Limo Tour.
Limo tour only had one no-show, IIRC. LaFemme did have a significant
fallout, but nobody took a bath, since tickets were purchased only
for people who paid. We had 74 signed up, 48 who paid and showed up,
or about a 33% drop-out ratio.
>Last years slumber party was an example where something like this could
>be used, where the cost of the rooms and snacks were purchased by the
>DLV planners of this event. They had a BIG show of interest in the
>discussion within this group, and were expecting a very BIG turnout,
>based on the final head count of those that had signed up to go. In
>fact the sign up was so big and rapid, a 2nd room was reserved.
Yes, and we learned (an expensive) lesson. There will be fallout in
any activity signups.
>Maybe those that signed up and didn't attend, didn't realize the cost
>that was finally involved with this event, the time that was spent
>planning, reserving the rooms, and puchasing the large quantity of
>food/snack items (based on the number of people that had signed up for
>the event) for that night, and ALSO for breakfast the next morning
>(which was a waste, because no one stayed till the next morning).
We had a double-whammy on the slumber party. One was the fallout that we
saw on any other nonpaid activity that required a signup. The second was
the transportation and parking issue. People knew parking was gonna be
limited, BUT did not know that there would be no access until that very
day. A number of people wanted to bring their own vehicle, and still
more were planning to ride with those that intended to drive. When it
was learned that bringing their own car would be impossible or at best
greatly inconvenient, a lot of people just said the heck with it.
I think we actually had a triple-whammy here as well, which I'm gonna
call activity overload. This was the very last activity of a very busy
day. We did have a 3 hour window between afternoon and evening
activities, but there was a comment that it did not in actuality exist.
I think there was indeed a third factor at play here, and that was that
many people were just too tired to party well into the morning.
>This may have also happened to other events, but not really brought up,
>and the planners just absorbed the cost by themselves.
The only activities where I'm aware of a financial penalty for turnout
shrinkage are:
1. Slumber party.
2. Swim party. I show 44 signed up, including waiting list, all cleared.
I think 20-some showed up. 40-50% fallout rate.
3. Makeup demo. 52 signed up. Again, 40-50% fallout rate. I find this
one perplexing, since it was the first activity of an otherwise slack
afternoon. John asked us to soft-pedal the fallout on this one, since
they did quite well overall from our group.
Looking back at some of the other activities, golf had a low fallout
rate, but as with limo, this was prepaid.
Sasha's dinner. We had 92 signed up for this. I estimate a 30-40%
fallout rate which in this case was a good thing. Had 90-some shown up,
they would have been totally buried, both for lack of seats and staffing
level.
>To prevent such a re-occurance, I'm just suggesting (ONLY suggesting)
>that, if there are any ... any cost (big or small) for a event (ie food
>and room reservations), the cost shoukl be estimated, divided up by
>those attending the event, and try to be payed by DLV attendees BEFORE
>the event ... kinda like how the Limo Tour was planned and paid for by
>DLV attendees. so then there will be no financal loss (big or small) to
>the planner(s), and a added incentive for those that signed up to go,
>to actually go to the event.
I liked the way finances were handled for both the limo tour and for
LaFemme. We had the best of both worlds. People did not have to go
through the hassle of sending off payment, they could pay during DLV,
plus the organizers were not at risk of taking a soaking.
I think we can summarize with a few clear principles that allow us to
maximize participation and minimize risk.
1. Allow convenient payment. Schedule pay-in-advance activities so there
will be time to pay at DLV. Allow payment by mail but try not to require
it.
2. If food/drink/whatever must be purchased, use the numbers we've
seen to determine an estimated real-world headcount. The fallout on
signups seems to be consistently in the 30-50% range.
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More DLVORG thoughts:
Anya writes:
>Here I go with some more thoughts conerning DLV 2003. I saw a lot of
>good ideas in the last email.
>Primm would be a nice activity for a "mall crawl" situation. Maybe not
>for an early breakfast so much, but maybe a middle of the day
>activity.
I tend to agree that this would work out much better for a late morning
or early afternoon start. See further discussion above (or below).
>There is a bus service that goes from MGM Grand and New York New York
>for $12.99. See this link
>http://www.fashionoutletlasvegas.com/Shuttle/index.htm
I am questioning whether we ought to even consider mentioning things
like this as options for our people. Speaking realistically, the thought
of taking a public shuttle with strangers would scare the hell out of
80% of our people.
It's not that long a drive (I and Sarah did it in 2001) and sharing
cars I'm sure it will come to far less than $12.99 per person. I
see a private vehicle with known-friendly companions as the only
transportation option for most of our people. I think I know the people,
and if such an option is not available, they just will not show up.
>The Primm complex also has a monorail connecting the three resorts, as
>well as several restaurants and a theme park. I would say put on some
>sunblock and spend the day.
. . . . .
>As for hotels I think the Four Corners at Tropicana and the Strip would
>be ideal. Certainly it is more convenent to our off Strip venues than
>being up near Sahara or even Spring Mountain.
I'm hearing two callings from the masses and from the DLVORG people. One
is that we should concentrate, the other is that we should diversify.
From the end of DLV through this day, hour, minute, and second, it
appears to me that the diversification calls are louder.
>I think we must not be so fearful of the themed resorts located on that
>corner. As for a hotel on the east side of the Strip the MGM Grand
>should do nicely. It didn't seem like anyone had a problem there.
We really haven't had enough people at any of these places to know how
they would be with a good crowd of t-girls there. I'm uneasy suggesting
a place that we don't really know is t-friendly, especially for the new
people.
>I find Luxor would be a good upscale yet moderately priced location for
>us.
I've stayed there personally (not over DLV) and I know a few DLV people
who have stayed there with no loud complaints. I did not have any
trouble there, but I will say there were many kids there, TONS of them.
Our people keep telling us that places without kids are preferred.
>It doesn't attract anywhere near as many families as say Excalibur or
>Circus Circus would.
>Any major Strip hotel will have families. there is just no way around
>it.
Yes, but those who target the grownup crowd will have fewer kids, and
that's what I keep hearing that our people want.
>As for it being on the west side of the Strip,
>use Reno Avenue to cross the strip, it's nowhere near as busy.
>As for a very upscale location Mandalay Bay deserves a look. The theme
>is more modern than say a Bellagio. It's still convenient to our off
>strip venues. New York New York also deserves some thought, as well as
>the San Remo.
. . . . .
>I find the comments concerning transportation to be most constructive.
>It would be unrealistic to expect people in our group to ride the CAT
>bus.
>Would I ride it in a dress, yes I would, but I have done quite a few
>things in life that entail some risk. I would rather ride the bus with
>others, not some much out of safety in numbers, but its more fun than
>doing it alone. However I don't see the buses fitting much into our
>progam anyway due to our venue locations.
>It is important to be familiar with the cabs and their rates.
>Coordinated cab riding can take the pain out of the high fares. Up to
>five people can ride in a cab. This can be very helpful if we all have
>our lodgings in a concentrated area.
Yes, taxis are a viable option for some of our people in some cases.
>We can't be wholly dependent on people who are driving cars. Driving
>in this event can be very tedious, it's a big reason why I choose not
>to drive.
>Let's give more thought to concentrating our group staying at the
>Tropicana Ave "Four Corners" properties. Maybe not all in the same
>hotel, but close enough to operate as a group. After all this is a
>"Vegas vacation", and that means enjoying "Vegas stuff".
I'm not opposed to adding one or more of the Tropicana-Strip area
places, if the group decides to do so, or to suggest that people use
taxis when appropriate to do so, or looking into more of a hired van
thing, if there is a demand for it.
I am, however, opposed to removing the options of the Sahara and the
IP, and opposed to removing the option of private or rental vehicle
ride-sharing for those who want it.
As for Boardwalk, the jury is still out, but I'm sure we will hear a
final report well in advance of our November target for making hotel
suggestions.
Actually, all we can really do is suggest properties. The returnees and
LV regulars mostly have their favorite places already. Therefore our
suggestions apply mostly to the new people who are unfamiliar with LV.
Some of our returnees will follow the crowd, others, including some of
our most regular regulars, will not.
I'm not hearing a clear consensus forming regarding how many properties
and which ones to suggest. I think we should continue this discussion,
but not at the expense of other more pressing topics, and if necessary
call for votes regarding which properties to suggest around the first
of November.
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Cheapovegas:
Leah writes:
>I stumbled across this Vegas site....pretty interesting with reviews on
>all the hotels and lots of info. I can't navigate it all with my
>little webtv but somewhere there is a pull down menu for other hotels.
>It lists just about every one if not all plus packages on hotels and
>car rentals. Might be a good thing for the girls to look over when
>making arrangements if you wouldn't mind sticking it in a mailing along
>the way.
>Here's the url:
>http://www.cheapovegas.com/fitz.html
>This link will take you to the front page and a review of the
>Fitzgerald Hotel, just look for the drop down menu to check the others.
>Sorry....just went back and looked at the site and the package deals is
>just a link to Expedia. The rest of the info is good tho......
This is the site that I've referred to as Big Empire. We've had a link to
it from our page for some time now. The lead-off URL's are:
http://www.bigempire.com/vegas/
http://www.cheapovegas.com/
They have some very good and amusing reviews of hotels and other things.
You are correct in that some of the links are only referral links to
Expedia and other well-known travel sites. They do have several, IIRC,
and they encourage you to shop around.
Some people on the newsfroup have criticized them for publishing room
rates that appear low. I think there is a misunderstanging here, in that
no, you can't often times get those rates by simply clicking their
referral banners, but you can usually get those rates if you do a bit
of homework.
But yes, it is in general a very good site. Did you be sure to read the
trip reports? :)
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Dates:
Anya writes:
>I thought I would state my opinion concerning the dates for DLV.
>I think it is very important that we move quickly concerning setting
>the dates for DLV. Time off for me looks pretty wide open. I have the
>time off to take but as time passes dates for taking time off close.
>Fortunately history has been on my side as far as full weeks opening up
>for DLV. For this last time I had just happen to schedule time off
>during the time of DLV 2002 before knowing about DLV.
>I am flexible as far as when DLV will be held. I am concerned though
>that if we wait too long it may become harder to schedule the time off.
>I know I may be reacting prematurely but advance planning is always the
>best.
The setting of the dates for DLV 2003 is actually our first job of the
season, and the only one on our plate now for which we are under a
deadline.
>I have found a number of hotels publish rates 6-8 months out. By getting
>the dates set early ideally this month or early next month we can
>broadcast them. Once we get the dates set everything else falls into
>place.
>Let me know what are the criteria and obstacles to overcome in setting
>out dates for DLV. I think DLV 2003 can be even much bigger and better
>than before.
Our target, as it has been for the past two years, is to have the date
for DLV set by the end of August. This should give everybody more than
enough time to plan and to book travel and hotel.
Although it's our decision, ("our" meaning the DLVORG group) we've
always called for comments from the general DLV audience before we
considered the dates to be in stone.
If we are to meet our target, we need to have our preliminary decision
made by the end of July, which is just a bit more than one month off.
We're still on target, although we don't want to let this subject drop
as the other topics dominate this list.
In the past there have been few comments from the masses other than a
couple to the effect of "looks ok to me" and such. This year, however,
I'm expecting a few more since there is no single ideal 6-day period
within the window between Easter and Mothers Day.
Our discussion has zeroed in on two possible periods, and both have
their proponents, although it appears that more are favoring the earlier
period for various reasons.
If a consensus does not appear to be forming by the middle of July,
which is about 3 weeks off, we'll call for votes.
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