Subject: dlvorg Newcomers, Passing, Makeovers, etc.
From: Annie (annie )
Date: Sun Aug 29 1999 - 14:52:08 CST
In this mailing:
First-timer feedback:
Concerns about meeting people:
Vendor notes:
Makeovers, etc.:
More Passing Thoughts:
Activities, events, and schedule items:
Administrivia:
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First-timer feedback:
>>>If DLV tries to hard to cater for nervous first timers, the past
>>>attendees may lose interest in coming because its no longer an "out and
>>>about" kind of convention.
>>I see us as always welcoming first-timers, and going out of our way to
>>support them, but not sacrificing the details of the event to do this.
>>I admit that the local t* groups and the legacy t* conventions would be
>>better for somebody who is high-anxiety.
>I disagree! If you've ever been to one of those, what you do is this.
>There is a registration room. There are usually 2-3 people at the desk,
>usually shooting the breeze with each other, and a whole bunch of
>people all around the room, standing in closed little circles, all
>talking and joking. After you register, and the girl registering you
>always gets interrupted a couple of times, your just thrown out to
>the dogs. It's hell to go to one of those not knowing anyone!
>You guys made me feel welcome. When somebody new showed up, you took
>the time to stop the conversation, introduce the new girl, offer them
>a seat, and that really means much, though it might not seem so, and
>then make them part of the group. That's why I'll be back!
Thanks, I'm glad to know we're doing something right. :)
What you described (mainline t* convention) will vary considerably.
Some of them are very cliquish, but others will be very open. Most of
them now will have a hospitality committee, whose job it is to help
newcomers get acquainted with the group, among other things.
At DLV we do have a hospitality committee. (Everybody's on it! :)
Anyway, positive feedback is always appreciated. Thanks again!
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Concerns about meeting people:
>Just as a note, on a personal level: there's been a lot of talk about
>how Las Vegas is a great place for a T* outing and first timers should
>be reassured that no one at DLV has ever been hassled, etc., and that
>with a little confidence, going out in public is a breeze. This is
>all well and good, but it doesn't answer my own concern. True, I'd be
>a little apprehensive the first time I stepped out of my hotel room
>dressed, but if the past is any guide I'd get over that soon enough.
>No, the reason I've yet to attend (having known about the last two
>outings in enough time to attend if I wanted) is a completely
>different fear: I am neurotically afraid of meeting new people. Las
>Vegas doesn't scare me; all of YOU do.
My first inclination is to simply respond by saying that you have
nothing to fear, because the group is very open and inclusive, etc.,
etc., but from having a relative who is also very uncomfortable with
new acquaintences, I know that will not do much good.
If it would help you (or anybody else who feels this way) ease in, I'm
certain we could arrange for you to meet one-on-one in advance with
either me or somebody else you know from the net. That way you would
not be walking in to a strange place full of total strangers.
>I don't say that meaning I think the DLV gals are a particularly scary
>group -- I just mean that flying off anywhere to spend a weekend in
>company with a group of people I've never met under ANY circumstances
>is for me an extremely nerve-wracking idea!
>Again, I don't mean any of this personally -- I don't
>know enough about anyone here to have anything against them. But
>that's just the point, I DON'T KNOW any of you. (I have chatted with
>a couple of participants online but that's not even remotely the same
>as meeting in person, not to me.)
It's very normal to feel some anxiety when meeting a new group of
people. Others have mentioned this too. I think this is compounded by
the fact that our group has its own baggage and negative connotations.
Many have remarked that they wondered if they could actually get up the
nerve to walk out of the hotel room. However, it is just as commonly
remarked that these feelings go away very rapidly, as they realize the
group (and those who make it up) are as welcoming as they are, and
others in the group felt the same way at one time or another.
>I don't really know what the solution is. I do think a "welcome" get
>together by people actually gregarious enough to enjoy meeting the
>newcomers and trying hard to help them fit in would help. (So would
>finding some people in my area ahead of time who I might work up the
>courage to meet beforehand, so when I got to DLV I wouldn't feel
>completely alone.)
And I don't know what the solution is either. We can do our best to
assure everybody that we understand how they feel, and will do our
best to support and encourage them.
Some of the larger t* gatherings will have a newcomers welcome type of
thing (freshman orientation :) but since our people do not all come at
a certain time, this is most likely not an option.
We've had official welcome get-togethers the past two years, and both
have turned out very well. Although these have been in a public place,
it is one that is relatively quiet and allows conversation. There has
been some intermingling between our group and the others in the place,
and I think that's a Good Thing<tm>. :)
>But I just wanted to point out that in at least
>one case, the anxiety doesn't come from facing the public -- it comes
>from facing individual people.
I think we can assure anyone something else regarding the people as
individuals, and that is that the jerk-level will be extremely low.
Rude and insensitive people are simply not attracted to gatherings
such as this.
Although the group is very good-natured and jovial, such things as put-
downs and jokes at the expense of others are very rare. Part of the
climate is inclusiveness and consideration of all who are present.
>I'd be so full of anxiety about not fitting in, making a terrible
>impression, feeling left out, or finding that I don't really care for
>the company, that I'm frankly not sure I could turn up at any of the
>gatherings.
As far as fitting in, our group is so varied that a misfit simply does
not exist. Just about the only thing everybody has in common is that
they are human, and in one way or the other have something to do with
the t* community. They range in age from the early 20's to the 60's
with no obvious concentration of any age group. They come from all over
the US, Canada, and even from overseas. (Yes, we've had people from
Switzerland and New Zealand.) As far as style and appearance, that is
just as varied, but everybody accepts each others's style, and I've
seen no peer pressure to dress or act a certain way in order to "fit in
better".
All of us are concerned for those who choose not to attend because
they think the rest of the group may not want them there or may not
want them to invade their territory. I hope we've done our best to
assure everybody that they are not stepping on anyone's turf, and
that the group includes THEM.
One concern I've had (both with DLV and with other gatherings) is
that of no-shows. This has happened with every t* event I've helped
organize, and I've often thought of accepting it as something that
will happen in our community. Still, I feel bad when we have a
last-minute cancellation with a "my dog ate my plane ticket" excuse,
or worse, a flat-out no-call-no-show-no-write-no-nothing.
I'm at a total loss as to what to do about this. I've offered to phone
anybody who feels like bailing out, but nobody's ever taken me up on
the offer. I've also done just about everything I can think of to help
out with anxiety, such as meeting people one-on-one, escorting them
from their room on that first night out, etc. I don't see what else I
or anybody else can do.
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Vendor notes:
>>>Having makeup people, wigs salespeople etc here to help is TOO LATE.
>>>You need to know what you want to do and know how to go about it before
>And another thing. If you've ever been to California Dreamin and those,
>the prices are WAY WAY high and the selection is WAY WAY low. I just
>walked across and over to Walgreen's and raided their whole cosmetic
>department and nobody paid any attention at all.
The vendors at the t* conventions do have somewhat of a captive
audience, plus they have to transport all of their wares to the site.
They have to decide what to pack and transport, and what to leave.
Some vendors who cater to the CD community are quite pricey, even to
the point of being total ripoffs. That's the advantage of having Las
Vegas as a setting. If you visit the local shops (those that do not
cater exclusively to tourists, that is) you will pay competitive
prices. I have yet to hear of any wig shop, dress shop, lingerie shop,
etc. giving our people rude, overpriced, or shoddy service. (It is my
theory that any wig shop that is not t-friendly will soon go out of
business.) Need cosmetics, we have two Mary Kay people asking for our
business, plus all of the usual walk-in places. All will be competitive
in price.
I don't see DLV ever having a "vendor hall". We don't need one. :)
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Makeovers, etc.:
>I've been reading my mail lately and I've got just a couple of
>(probably insignificant) comments.
Comments are usually anything but insignificant. :)
>First off, I'm glad you decided to close the Red Rooster debate. I
>won't participate in an event that sponsors trips to a place that
>advertises itself in such a manner. If anybody else wants to go
>unofficially, I'll stay in the hotel or hang out in the casinos.
I don't think you will be lacking any company. :)
>About the makeovers; I agree that scheduling them after the girls go
>out may be too late. Something I've noticed about Mary Kay makeovers
>is that they are usually done in groups - what if we have something
>akin to the regular skin care class as a scheduled outing early in the
>event?
We can discuss the exact day and time when we start plugging things
into the schedule after the first of the year, but I do tend to agree
that demand would be greater before the big dress-up evenings.
>Several people have suggested a hospitality or meeting room and this
>would be something that could be done there or in someone's room (like
>that cool suite that you had last year).
It was actually a fluke that I ended up in the suite. I had originally
reserved a motor inn room (those once again destined for the wrecking
ball) and due to one reservation foulup after another, was upgraded to
a suite. This was not one of the current high-roller suites, but an
older one in the Villa area by the pool. It was nice, but I really did
not make full use of it. I let two of our people crash in the living
room on the couches when they came in ahead of their reservation, and I
let a couple of the local girls use it to change. I won't have that
again next year, but SJ is checking into a suite or meeting room for
things like this.
>It's a chance for us to get together and learn about make-up and have
>newbies 'come out' in a non-threating environment where they can gain
>more confidence in their ability with cosmetics. Most of the women
>I've talked to really enjoy getting together and sharing in this
>atmosphere, but most T* women have never had the oppotunity to do
>something like this. Going from a makeover like this to another
>function (maybe the group dinner or even a show or shopping trip-I
>loved the malls) would help everyone have more confidence which is
>never a bad thing.
I think a dinner or show after the makeovers would be a good idea.
Maybe the MK people would like to join us. :)
>I'll stop now before I repeat myself some more...thanks for listening.
... and, thanks for writing. :)
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More Passing Thoughts:
>Hurrow, a comment on the passing issue. It was mentioned previously
>that all people who had attended dlv had the potential to pass...
>>>I'm gonna speak very freely here, so please bear with me. At DLV99,
>>>actually at all three years, there was not a single person who, with
>>>some attention to detail and ATTITUDE (note the emphasis), could not
>>>pass.
>might this not be because those that know and feel too strongly that
>they cannot just dont show at such an event??
I do think that the majority of our community is still in the closet,
and will be for some time to come. We get mostly those who have been
in public already (and enjoy it) as well as those who see this as a
great opportunity to do so. The ability to pass comes with experience
and yes, those who have no experience in public and do not have the
desire to get that experience will not come to dlv.
>not everyone does have the ability to pass.
We may have to agree to disagree on this point.
What I was trying to say, which may have gotten lost somewhere, was
that almost anyone, with proper attention to detail and attitude
(emphasis on attitude) can pass as an individual. By "passing", I mean
that they can be presentable, and not attract attention to the fact
that they may not be genetically female.
Not everybody can be a Barbie Doll, but almost everybody can be
presentable and non-obvious in public.
Long-standing quote in the t* community is along the line of "Passing
is 90% attitude ...". Attitude, in this context, also includes the
desire to dress appropriately to time, place, circumstance, as well as
age, body type, and fitness. Not everybody has that desire.
>I suspect the important points have already been made they are as
>follows... there is NO WAY that a large group of tranny's will ever
>pass. It doesnt happen.
I will agree with you on that. The magic number (for a group of t's that
can get away with it) seems to be about 2-3. (The mathematics of this can
be a topic for a long rainy Thursday. :)
That's why we ask our people to avoid the temptation to hang around in
large groups when in the casinos, on the strip, in tourist areas, etc.
>The most important thing is indeed attitude. The event is a social and
>is (hopefully) located some distance from most peoples local home. It
>is as safe a place as any to go for that first time. Sometimes you just
>have to do it :)
Yep, as Alan Shepard said:
"Sometimes you just gotta say What The F^H {heck}". :)
>Maybe people who previously have been to DLV (as there first time out
>anywhere) would be willing to talk to the prospective new girls?
>perhaps a list so they can answer any specific questions from those who
>are unsure? It is my firm belief that these very girls are the ones we
>need to reach.
That's true. We do have a number of people who had their big coming-out
at DLV. I'm sure most of them would be willing to share.
>My other thoughts - about the idea of bringing someone into DLV
>specifically to help people pass is that this should be something
>people arrange on their own.
>It all sounds way way to much like the start of a convention.
We refer to DLV as "A vacation, not a convention" to differentiate
it from the countless "conventions" that exist, most of which are
very similar (and more expensive). All these conventions will have
group activities, we have had some group activities as long as we've
been around. It's a question of semantics as to what is and is not a
convention.
However, there are things that are commonly reported as not liked
about the mainline t* conventions. We've tried to avoid these.
If I may digress for a few lines, I'll itemize a few ...
1. Nobody seems to be happy with the (hotel catered) food, period.
2. Keynote addresses are seldom mentioned as a "most-liked" item.
3. Pageants and talent contests usually appeal to a subgroup only.
4. Many have an atmosphere of being a large communal closet.
5. Complaints that everything is overpriced.
What people do seem to consistently report as liking include:
1. Makeup/fashion/comportment/etc. sessions, especially those that
are participatory.
2. Side-trips, field trips, etc., such as excursion to a shopping mall,
local attractions (FH has Miller Brewery on the slate), pub crawl, etc.
3. The ability to meet others and "just shoot the bull" informally.
4. Major dress-up evenings (even though food and entertainment may not
be optimal).
Enough with the digression. Back to our program. :)
.....
>Wouldnt people be happy to help others out in this regard?
Yes, advice is in abundance at DLV. Speaking from a personal
standpoint, I'm very careful in feedback I give, to the point of being
afraid to be brutally honest. I know others are uneasy to give
feedback, since even constructive criticism is not always taken in the
manner it was intended.
I see the bringing-in of a professional as twofold, one that he/she is
a disinterested third party, whose job it is to observe, note flaws,
and make suggestions for improvement. Second, very few attendees, if
any, are professional cosmetologists, and really know face shapes,
skin types, product lines, etc.
>Surely there is scope from local establishments should people like to
>be really made over?? If we make connectons with local groups im sure
>they would be more than happy to assist?
Yes, we have a number of local resources. However, last year the
interest dried up as the weekend progressed. I think the answer is to
schedule such a thing as a makeover demo early enough in the event to
let our people have enough time to act before the big evenings.
>Anyways eager and excited I wait for DLV
Me too! Maybe we should start the "days till DLV" counter. :)
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Activities, events, and schedule items:
1. Group dinner (theme night?)
2. Hospitality/meeting room.
3. Thrift shop tour.
4. Legacy LV show (Splash, Follies).
5. Behind-the-scenes Follies tour.
6. Concert at Hard Rock.
7. Trip to Rhyolite.
8. Rocky Horror Picture Show.
9. Makeovers, etc.
Anything missing here? Incorrect? If so, send it in.
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Administrivia:
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*hugs*
annie :)
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