From: Diva Las Vegas organizers (dlvorg@geekbabe.com)
Date: Wed May 31 2006 - 08:26:45 CDT
In this mailing:
Org List
This mailing
Dress comments
Dress comments
Administrivia
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Org List:
This is the DLV 2006 Organizational Mailing List (dlvorg@geekbabe.com)
Replies to this message will be forwarded to the DLVORG list and not
the DLV-Announce or DLV-Discuss list.
Ongoing activity database appears on the web at:
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This mailing:
More dress comments this time.
Next week we'll have the introductory mailing of the DLV 2007 ORG list.
This will be transparent to most of you, and we will be adding a few
more names to the list.
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Dress comments:
Diana writes:
With respect to the dressing issues I am reminded of an incident a
couple of years ago, I think at Hamburger Mary's and not during DLV,
when I met up with a group of girls from the Monday nite group here in
town.
I showed up in jeans, sneakers and a top and one of the newer girls to
the group eventually asked me " How could you waste a time getting out
and not wear a mini, heels and stockings?" Well, I had to chuckle
inside a bit but I am wondering what percentage of DLV'ers adopt this
same attitude? In other words, not missing a chance to dress up
regardless of the situation?
My opinion is that there are many.
Now if their tastes lean to the more risque then I don't think a couple
of group embarrassments each year is ever going to go away and it might
as well be considered part of DLV.
I am in complete agreement however that it should try to be minimalized
at best for the overall comfort of the others and I also do share in
Tina's comment that a large group will be noticed anyway.
I don't have a solution, don't see one coming and don't think it's so
major of an issue to begin with given the small pct. of incidents.
Guess what I'm saying is I wouldn't let what someone else is wearing
even remotely bother me or interfere with my vacation. It's really none
of my business and if it causes an issue at a venue then surely that
person and that person alone will have to deal with management about it.
At the last Carluccio's outing we had a minor problem with a group of
girls who were sitting at the bar in the main room and not eating with
the group and using the main Ladie's Room. The management had asked us
to use a restroom in the back which seemed OK with most of the group.
The manager came to me with complaints from some other patrons about
these girls using the room and I informed them of the arrangements to
use the back restroom. Well, you guessed it, they still continued to
use the main one and the manager again complained to me about them.
I told him I instructed them which one to use and if you wanted to
pursue it with them it's really none of my business because they
technically were not part of our group and you should deal with it as
you see fit.
I don't think anything came of it, they were gone when we finished and I
didn't hear any more about the matter. My point here is that you will
never get everyone to do what the organizers think is best for the
group. There will always be an element of people who will do what they
want where and when they want so we might as well get used to it. These
girls mentioned above were not newbies either. Live and let live, just
keep the pistol loaded.
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Dress comments:
Yvonne writes:
>I just had to comment on some of the up-tight comments I've been
>reading lately. DLV has progressed considerably in the wrong direction
>from the relaxed group it was in 1999 through approximately 2001.
My understanding is that offically DLV is a 'vacation'. Has this
changed?
Events are planned by volunteers who would like to do a certain
activity. When situations like direction or the 'appropriate-ness' or
'politically-correctness' of a event or activity are questioned, its
openly discussed and then promptly voted upon. The final decision is by
the majority, and that determines the direction of DLV.
The proof is in the attendence. If the majority didn't like what DLV was
providing, the attendence would be very very low, and the most comments
would be negative. I don't see any of this.
Those that find DLV is not in their interest, they won't attend. Nothing
wrong with that either.
It's the indivduals choice, and its not the fault of the DLV organizers,
nor the direction of DLV.
Its IS because no one has volunteered to create and provide events or
activities that would attract the interest in these individuals who
don't attend, to want to attend.
So how can this group go progressively in the wrong direction?
>After that, as its size increased significantly and new members came
>into the ORG group, a distressing level of judgmental attitude has
>increasingly asserted itself. Along with certain necessary policy
>implementations in the area of restroom policy and discouragement of
>illegal activities, there has been an increasing tendency to judge
>people's dressing efforts.
Please do not forget that we had to deal with tragic restroom events
that tramatized innocent dlv attendees in mainstream locations, caused
by those that didn't care about how they appeared in public.
Something had to be done to prevent this type of occurance... and it
resulted in a agreed upon set of standards.
The problem may be in the interpretation of such standard limitations,
which is leading to more individual's expressing what those standards
are to them, and how others meets or fails those standards. It can
either be helplful criticism or judgement....alot depends on how its
communicated and received.
I think we have a good set of standards that have been agreed upon.
So where do you 'draw the line' or 'control' how to dress to prevent a
re-occurance? and more-so improve the wording so it becomes exact and
clear for everyone so there is no mis-understanding or varied
interpretation?
With the right kind of vocal expressions, it can improve the individuals
quest to dress and behave better. Alot has to do with how the individual
takes such advice or criticism. This topic is still still being
discussed... There hasn't been a answer to this as of yet.
>DLV ORG members have increasingly tried to urge/enforce a progressively
>conservative style of dress for a "vacation" in one of the most
>hedonistic towns in the US.
When walking around LV, I see the majority of the people wearing
conservative casual wear. Maybe I'm walking in the wrong part of LV
strip or downtown.
>The caustic judgments of some DLV attendees in the past few years has
>been even more draconian. This has taken much of the fun out of DLV
>and is one of the main reasons I haven't attended in the last few
>years.
Have you considered that because of a few, the majority aren't having
'fun' or as 'relaxed' as result of the actions of those few? ... and
alot of the problems are because of how the few behave or dress ...
which in all cases, have gone beyond the standards that were set?
According to the stats a majority of attendees enjoyed part of or most
of DLV and its because of the standards used.
>>Screaming Trannies, Hookers on Heat and the femme neutral look need to
>>be stomped on. They are an embarrassment to us all.
>Please speak for yourself.
I agree... they are speaking for themselves and they don't like it.
>They haven't been an embarrassment to me, other than the 1 or 2 real
>hookers who used to use DLV for business purposes.
Good point, you haven't been confronted by Casino Management and blamed
and accosted by someone else's behavior. What about those that have been
due to the actions of others that really created the problem?
>Letting your hair down and dressing outrageously used to be
>one of the real fun things about DLV. And it was never a problem at
>the vast majority of places DLV used to go (Goodtimes, Flex, Gipsy,
>Spotlight Lounge, Las Vegas Lounge, Keys).
All the places you mentioned are considered 'safe' venues, and all
attendees have let their 'hair down' at those places. At those places
they can dress any way they like. If you read our dress policy it states
that.
Its not mainstream venues or events.
>"[W]hores" - wow, that's pretty judgmental. If "[t]hey need to dress
>more appropriately", then whose judgment would be used?
So are you saying, don't judge and don't do anything? or allow those
that dress in-appropriate to embarass or put in the spotlight for the
whole group there?
>For several years now, the ORG group and activity coordinators have
>been empowered to speak up to people dressed really far out for
>mainstream activities.
The organizer of a event should be in control of it.
>From monitoring DLV ORG from 2004 through 2006, its an issue that gets
>talked about a lot, but has had to seldom be acted upon in Vegas;
>although, its an issue that is often talked about after each DLV.
It have been done this year.
>Bluenose attitudes such as those expressed by the above individual just
>seem too outlandish to take into real consideration in terms of ORG
>policy.
Please define 'outlandish' when dealing with mainstream conservative
businesses, and having one exoticly dressed male terrorizing genetic
women in their own restroom? or creating a scene in the casio or
resturant with kids?
>This indicates that even though we have given attention to dress that
>is appropriate for time, place, and circumstance, some believe that
>this is still an issue.
For the clueless, yes. They may need coaching or understanding which
they lack, which is the purpose of the 'Big Sister' program.
>You can't please all of the people all of the time, nor should you try.
Yes we cannot please everyone, but we have to please most ... or
consider DLV only going to safe venues.
DLV has evolved to going to and having fun at main stream venues...and
has kept the safe venues too. Seems those guidelines that were set and
followed has allowed the majority to enjoy going to mainstream venues
and events.
>Too often, the ORG group tries to blame attention on one or two
>improperly dressed individuals. The fact is that when you get a group
>of 50, 75, or 100 cross-dressed people together for big events (shows,
>etc) and they're average age is 55 (per Annie's 2006 survey), then
>you're going to get noticed. All of you.
Yes, I agree with getting read. The point is NOT about getting read.
Its about behaving and dressing in a manner that is less offensive and
conforms to the norm of the environment. Its about the 1 or a few who
fail to follow what standards that were set, and eventually ruins the
evening for everyone else.
>Also, since about 2002 (when the ORG group really took off, IIRC),
>there has been much more discussion about making DLV 'safe' for
>first-timers out in public. First-time out and blend-in dressing are
>often diametrically opposed, due to the inexperience of the
>first-timer. If DLV wants to encourage first-timers to attend, then
>you have to live with some of this.
DLV has with the standards that were set. Also the Big Sister program
to help those asking for help in this area.
DLV is providing safe venues and events for those that don't pass or
dress well. The last big email listings states this over and over...
and it includes how to dress and behave in mainstream venues.
DLV has multi-track events to go to either 'safe' or mainstream venues.
DLV has always stated that going to mainstream places and events
requires a higher level of behavior and dressing standards.
>The early years used to talk about how DLV was a great chance to go out
>and be yourself on vacation, and it had a great mix of GLBT venues and
>main-stream venues. ... To me, DLV has lost that attitude and
>atmosphere.
No it hasn't. It has evolved into something that the majority of those
attending has envisioned it to be. It has over the years increased
exposure of the attendees to mainstream venues and events.
It can still have events that are relaxed, and free wheeling, just like
you had in the past. I encourage YOU to volunteer to plan them!
>>... and the femme neutral look need to be stomped on.
>And the heavily troweled on foundation and granny dress is somehow more
>acceptable?
If given the choice between the two, someone dressed appropriately as a
granny, and with heavy foundation, is better than someone showing a
beard shadow and wearing a granny dress and nothing else.
>I believe that these articulated concerns are over-blown and the
>opinions of a very small minority, both within the ORG group and within
>DLV.
Where is your data on this?
>DLV isn't fun anymore.
Yes, you are entitled to your opinon. But since you use Annie's data...
seems you are wrong, for many found DLV06 quite the opposite from your
opinion.
How can you say this when you haven't attended DLV in the last few
years?
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Administrivia:
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Diva Las Vegas 2006
April 17 - 23, 2006
Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
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