From: Annie (annie@geekbabe.com)
Date: Mon Sep 22 2003 - 07:51:02 CDT
In this mailing:
Org List
This mailing
Motion submitted
San Remo
Art for art's sake
Happiness is a warm gun
Mother Superior jumped the gun
Saturday show
Some thoughts
Some thoughts
Summary schedule of activities
Administrivia
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Org List:
This is the DLV 2004 Organizational Mailing List (dlvorg@geekbabe.com)
Replies to this message will be forwarded to the DLVORG list and not
the DLV-Announce or DLV-Discuss list.
Ongoing activity database of proposed and scheduled activities on line:
http://www.geekbabe.com/annie/org04arc/acts.html
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
This mailing:
This is being sent out early due to the fact there is a motion submitted
that needs our consideration. Please read the item below and give us
your comments.
There are also many other items. Please do not let the scheduling issue
(or any other issue) distract your attention from what needs to be done
to plan DLV 2004.
Please excuse me if some of this mailing sounds a bit terse and rough,
but I'm editing some of it quickly and getting it out Monday. I'm also
about 3 days behind on answering other mail. If you wrote me and don't
get a response in another few days, please send in a reminder.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Motion submitted:
We have a motion entered to amend the DLV 2004 dates to begin Saturday,
May 1 and to end Sunday, May 9.
LeeAnna writes:
>It is a motion for Saturday the 1st of May.
>With that date almost all of the gals that have a need to be back home
>for Mother's Day can be. Events can be planned for Saturday the 1st
>through to Sunday the 9th so that all can be happy. Those that can do
>the whole week, lucky girls....:+)
Although I have reservations about increasing the length of DLV by 3
days, as moved, you may consider this to be a second of this motion.
Please note that this motion is only to change the start and end dates,
nothing else.
The floor is now open for discussion on this motion. Should it carry,
it would extend the dates for DLV 2004 to May 1-9.
Comments? Discussion?
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San Remo:
>>Monique, anything to report on the negotiations with the San Remo
>Due to a heavy workload, I've not had a chance to talk to the San Remo
>yet. I will do so after I return from Southern Comfort end of Sept.
Thanks. We won't be voting on the issue until November, so that should
be plenty of time.
Speaking of which, do we have a nomination for the San Remo as one of
our suggested hotels? :)
Any other hotels anybody wants to nominate?
Bellagio fans?
Imperial Palace fans?
Boardwalk fans?
Station/Coast fans?
Others?
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Art for art's sake:
Sarah writes:
>I'll be in Las Vegas in early October to do a little field work on the
>Art Tour options. Nora, in L.V., tells me there is a listing of
>over 60 options that we will be able to choose from.
>Regardless, we have discussed doing one gallery before lunch, getting
>something to eat, resting our feet and then doing at least one more
>after lunch. If we find some that are located in the same area, we may
>even be able to spread out. More details will be available in a month
>or so.
>There has been some interest in visiting the Liberace Museum in the
>afternoon, and that will be high on the list of options too.
Wow, imagine that ... both Rhyolite and Liberace Museum actually
happening for real ... the same year even. :)
Seriously, Liberace Museum is worth the trip, IMAO, but the price of
admission has been creeping upward over the past few years.
>In the meantime, and in fact up until DLV itself, we should remain
>flexible. We may find a great show just opening up or a discount for
>an established show that we can take advantage of. Just plan on
>comfortable shoes, good companionship, lunch and some quiet time with
>art or history or both on Thursday.
Yes, please keep us informed. We'll probably want to do a write-up
of this activity in the weeks just prior to DLV this spring to be sure
there's maximum interest.
One thing I am gonna go is put this on the slate for 10:00am on Thursday
to get the time reserved. You can change or delete it if necessary.
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Happiness is a warm gun:
Gina writes:
>Okay since there will be a gun show in town, (Thanks Yvonne for looking
>this up) I'll drop my objections about the Mother's Day thing.
>The Gun Show was a blast for me, it goes along very well for my "be
>out in public" attitude. I didn't get hasselled once, of course it
>helps that I knew more than most of the vendors about their products.
>My experience about the TG community and shooters is actually
>remarkably positive, they are in general so pissed off by being singled
>out in press and public as evil, they are generally very accepting.
>I'll be going to the gun show and then be leaving right after, how
>about scheduling the Garden party to start about noon, so we can stop
>by there and say good-bye before leaving town.
I don't know what they will set for the start of the GP this year,
but last year it was 11:00, so if you arrive at noon you will be
"fashionably late" ... you will be getting there right as things
are getting going. :)
>Tips about dressing for the Gun Show, most ladies that go to the show
>wear jeans, tops, tennis shoes, or casual shoes, not many (read any)
>wear anything fancy or flashy. Dress casual, if someone gives you any
>grief, walk away, I assure you that these people will respect your
>money as much as the next persons. It does however take a little extra
>courage to venture into this level of outedness, so if you are more
>comfy in Boy-mode, by all means go that way, I'll be proud to
>acknowledge you in any form.
>I'll take on whatever organizing is required for this,
Ok, thanks, Gina, we'll get the gun show on the list. I'm gonna put this
down for a 10:00am start for now. You can adjust this as necessary.
Also, Gina or Yvonne, can you please get us the exact name for this show
so I can list it correctly on the schedule?
(bang-bang, shoo-ooo-ot shoot)
>and also the After hours at Charles' Belaggio Bar.
Do you have a day/time for the Charles Bar thing?
>Hotels, I've stayed in the major casinos, IP and Belaggio, and at an
>off-strip comfort inn. I'll stay at the Comfort Inn again without
>question.
>While the Belaggio is awesome, (the IP just plain sucked), it takes so
>long to get in and out of, where as the Comfort Inn was a cinch to get
>in and out of and was a really nice room. Unless a whole bunch of
>events are going to be in a particular casino, I'll stay in the smaller
>hotel anytime.
Question: Are you nominating either the Bellagio or the Comfort Inn
for next year's DLV?
>Now the bad news, Gina is now without an Airplane, and as such, the
>airplane rides that I've offered won't be available. (sniff-sniff)
Well, hopefully you can acquire another one soon. :)
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Mother Superior jumped the gun:
>Oh god!, is it going to be nun's with gun's next! <grin>
... and Densie writes:
>>... please focus the same degree of attention and energy toward
>>planning activities that you DO want to see happen
>I, too, would like to hear some positive comments for a change...and
>maybe a little lightening up.
>It is obvious to me that the Nun-Fest is not going to be a scheduled
>activity, and I only know one person besides me who wants to
>participate.
Don't feel bad about this, please. I've lost count of the things that
I've proposed for DLV, beginning with year one, that have been
poo-poo'ed by the group.
>However, Rocky Horror is still sans dress code, and those who want to
>ride with me can still have the opportunity to make a dramatic entrance.
>I can't think of any place where it would be more appropriate for those
>of us who are not easily offended to do our own version of Red Shoe
>Night.
The thing is, wearing such things as leather and fishnets, or even a
nun's habit, is appropriate for the time, place, and circumstance of
RHPS. That is well within the bounds of what's usual and customary to
wear to such an activity ... and does conform to our dress guidelines
... just as much as wearing jeans to Rhyolite, or an evening gown to a
fancy show, white gloves and hat to high tea, or a sundress to the
garden party.
>Maybe those who are easily offended could give those of us who aren't
>this one opportunity to be ourselves...the same consideration you ask
>the public for when you go out dressed!
>Please let us know about the dates as soon as you can, so us early
>birds can start shopping for hotel rooms.
The timeframe has been voted upon by us last month and published.
Although some appear to be unhappy with the agreed-upon dates, as of
this time there's been no serious motion placed on the table to
invalidate them and re-do the date selection process.
>The gun show sounds great. I would love to do it again.
Well, as you've read, it's now on the calendar.
>>That was in 2001, according to Densie's blow-by-blow summary at:
>> http://www.geekbabe.com/annie/dlv01arc/0041.html
>Oh, yes, the year of the first air tours, the lap dancing sluts and
>the drooling perverts. I'm actually glad I wrote this stuff. It
>brings back memories.
For those who have not read that one, it is definitely worth the effort
to click on it and at least skim it.
This is one of the classic DLV write-ups of all time. If I ever get
around to making that collection of DLV history and lore, this will
certainly be included.
>>I would like to nominate the Sahara for consideration as
>I second that.
So noted. {mark on chalkboard}
>>Don't hold your breath. Apology writing does not seem to be the forte'
>>of the Las Vegas hotels. :(
>There might be a reason for that. When I worked in retail management,
>I was told never to apologize to a customer who slipped and fell or was
>otherwise injured as that might be an admission of culpability for a
>lawsuit.
Back when I was in college I worked in hotels (both motel complex type
and downtown highrise type) and at the time (70's) the one principle
that the GM's always preached was to keep the guests happy.
Any written complaint always got a response and always made it to at
least the assistant manager level. Anything serious got at least a
2-for-1 coupon for the restaurant and quite often a voucher for a free
night.
Last year the Sahara didn't charge me for the night when I got stuck in
the elevator.
In the competitive atmosphere of Las Vegas, I would think that if a
hotel *really* wanted our business, they would make a few gestures
toward making their unhappy guests happy.
>>Are these conflicts really a Bad Thing<tm>? Maybe, maybe not.
>Maybe they are telling us that we should extend DLV to ten days, or
>even two weeks. Of course people are going to complain (imagine that)
>that they can't make the whole thing, but wouldn't it be the same
>problem if they couldn't make both tracks of a two-tracked activity?
>>I would hope that everybody involved has the common sense to know what
>>might be appropriate to wear to RHPS might not be appropriate to wear on
>>the Strip in the daytime.
>s'OK. A black habit is too hot to wear in the daytime anyway.
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Saturday show:
(excerpted from DLVDISC)
Kate writes:
>I see we have no glitzy event for Saturday evening so I would like to
>suggest we have Showgirls of Magic Saturday night for those who are not
>hampered with Mom's day problems.
If you want to volunteer to coordinate something like this, let us know
and we'll get this on the calendar, as nobody has made any definite
proposals for Saturday evening, other than RHPS, which actually occurs
early Sunday morning, and may also be shifted to Friday night (early
Saturday morning) if the cast does have a show then.
(I think we can declare our Big Bang Saturday as dead.)
The only suggestion I might make is that I think the turnout would be
better if another show of the same price range would be substituted to
simply avoid the repetition.
David Saxe Productions (those who produce SOM) has recommended "V, the
Ultimate Variety Show" for us this coming year. I'm kinda holding this
one in reserve in case nobody else plans or proposes a Saturday evening
show, but I'm definitely not married to it.
There are also other possibilities. Leah has mentioned that Kenny Kerr
is putting another show together. We haven't seen Kenny since 2001 and
that's always been well-liked by the group.
There are other options for a reasonably-priced Saturday show as well.
I'm kinda watching the progress of Sixties Mania, a lounge show which
has just graduated to a production show.
But anyway, if you're serious about coordinating a SOM session, write me
and I'll give you a contact in their group sales office.
>So why don't we just survey this coming years attendees when the time
>comes and see if they would like to do it in April instead of May next
>time eg:- 2005.
I do think we can include such a question on our DLV 2004 follow-up
survey, yes.
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Some thoughts:
Tina writes:
>>Going back into DLV history and looking for any precedents, DLV has
>>spanned (not just ended before it, but surrounded and included it)
>>Mothers Day in 3 years, 1997, 1998, and 2000.
>>Prior to 1997, the subject was not even brought up. It was brought up
>>in 1998, but consensus was that it was no big deal.
>Well, DLV didn't formally exist prior to 97 (yes, I know what you
>really meant), and the issue didn't come up in 97 and 98 because I
>hadn't started attending yet. :-) DLV 99 was my first year, so I've
>only been to 5 (a mere baby). :-) :-)
>>Prior to 2000, however, the first objection was raised. Consensus was
>>that it was an issue, but not enough to consider rescheduling.
>It was just after DLV 2000 that my spouse blitzkrieged me with how
>disappointed she was that I missed Mother's Day, so clearly it was a
>problem to other people even back then because they raised the issue
>BEFORE the 2000 weekend.
>I've raised it as an issue for scheduling every year since then and
>that had previously been sufficient (or lucky) to avoid the scheduling
>conflict. Unfortunately, like a complacent politician, I thought
>bringing it up a time or two again this year would be sufficient.
>In retrospect, I wish I had campaigned about it loud and long, because
>I truly believe that most DLV people outside the ORG group don't
>really care if its right before or right after the Inter-Op tech
>conference (or about Inter-Op at all, but that's a separate topic). I
>was off-line from DLV for big chunks of the summer (up to 2 weeks at a
>time) because of work. Apparently, I also missed the recent comment
>period for general DLV people, since some people are referring to these
>dates as "final" (more comments on "finality" below).
><snip>
>>I don't want those who must miss the Saturday evening activities of
>>DLV due to Mothers Day to be thinking that they will be missing the
>>"Best >Part", and choose to skip the entire week instead.
>Well, I do (see below).
>>One option that was suggested was to "slide" DLV forward a day,
>>beginning on Sunday the 2nd. (as we've kept the option open to do) and
>>then using Saturday the 8th as an optional extension day for those who
>>want it and are able to do so.
>>I'm suggesting that we re-think our previous thoughts for some kind of
>>a "big bang" on Saturday, and think about making Saturday more of a
>>wind-down day. (As of this time, nothing is solid for Saturday
>>evening.) The garden party could be a very good wind-down activity,
>>just as it could be a lead-in to a big bang, or it could be moved to
>>Friday if that is to be our new official end date.
>>Particularly, to those for whom Mothers Day is an issue, please
>>suggest solutions.
>Well, Mother's Day is an issue for me, but I don't think that I have
>any good solutions for something as badly out of sync as this situation
>(other than what I already suggested). It's human nature to look to
>Saturday for a big finale/party/blowout/whatever.
>I think that many people plan their at-home weekends that way with
>Sunday for a wind-down (watch football, nap, sing karaoke, etc). If
>they pay to come out to Vegas and stay that weekend, I think they will
>be looking for and finding lots of fun.
>It's hard to believe that there wouldn't be something great happening
>Saturday just because we might say DLV ends after Friday. Doesn't
>sound like human nature to me and I just don't buy that argument.
>Already we've just seen a suggestion on the disc list to put a fun
>show (SGOM again) on Saturday night.
>Sliding DLV a day forward to have the last big event on Friday sounds
>good in theory, but I just don't think you can fight that partying
>human nature. And I think that people who have to go home early will
>feel "cheated". I know I feel that way. I can't see spending the
>money to go out there and then go home just as DLV is hitting full
>throttle. A lot of people don't even get there until the weekend.
>I've always felt somewhat disappointed on the years I've had to go home
>Sunday when there were fun Sunday night and Monday activities planned.
>This would be worse. Why spend money to feel bad at the end?
>Clearly Mother's Day is going to affect attendance that weekend by some
>people. There have been some nice online expressions of sympathy and
>there have also been comments that essentially say "tough luck, see you
>next year". That's disappointing considering the scheduling
>considerations we make for other groups within DLV.
>I am particularly galled by all the comparisons to California and
>Presidential politics. What absolute rubbish. This isn't even an
>election for dog-catcher, it's a loosely organized group of supposedly
>like-minded people. Clubs, for lack of a better analogy, take votes
>all the time, change their minds and then re-vote as circumstances
>change/facts emerge/people change their minds. When DLV is still 8
>months away, save the granite and chisel for Moses on the mountain or
>your local headstone carver.
Actually, there is quite a bit of similarity between the California
recall and any movement to "recall" the dates for DLV. Both were
democratic decisions where some believe that a mistake was made, and
they are asking the voters to reconsider.
It would be unfair and impractical for any one person, or any subgroup
of our people to arbitrarily and unilaterally declare the agreed-upon
dates to be void or invalid. If the dates are to be changed, it will
be a democratic process, and it will be done very carefully and
methodically.
Late note: We now have a motion. If the motion carries, it will adjust
our dates. If it fails, the dates will remain the same and those who
wish to enter other motions will be free to do so.
Since I'm the one who has taken most of the crap about this, I'll be
following Roberts as much as practical through this process. (Yes, I
know Roberts is not ideal for an electronic forum, but that's the best I
can do, sorry.) I don't want there to be any claims that the process is
invalid or flawed.
>I must admit I was shocked to read that one person said they had
>already made their vacation arrangements based on these dates. IIRC,
>in years past, we've urged people to wait until around January to make
>firm (i.e., non-refundable) travel reservations and so forth.
>Regardless of how this discussion turns out, I think that warning bears
>repeating.
>It was suggested that it would take a motion, a second, and then an
>election to change the dates. I'm not going to make that motion.
>There is a prideful (and hurt) part of me that thinks that after 5
>years of helping organize DLVs that I shouldn't have to make this big a
>deal out of this. These dates hurt me by keeping me from fully
>participating.
>They hurt one of your longtime airplane drivers who has flown people
>for years for free. And they hurt the others who have spoken up (whose
>circumstances I don't personally know so well). I would imagine that
>these dates hurt additional people (perhaps not on the ORG list) who
>haven't spoken up for the same reasons that I find this whole
>conversation so personally distasteful. Nobody likes to have to ask
>for special treatment or make a big fuss and I'm embarrassed that I've
>had to carry it this far. I'm surprised and disappointed that more
>people don't "get it" about what a problem Mother's Day is for some of
>us. If the 7 year plank holders don't think that this is important
>enough to reconsider and make that motion themselves, than I'm probably
>not going to convince a bunch of 1 and 2 year DLVers who've just joined
>the ORG group relatively recently.
>From my view, its been a divisive and/or problematic year or so for DLV
>(dress codes, behavior codes, some like them and some don't, the
>troubles that prompted them). This schedule choice is a further
>division. Even if we quit discussing it today, it causes a division
>because some of us simply won't physically be there, at least at times,
>because of it. (Yes, any schedule causes this effect for somebody,
>because no schedule is perfect.) Mother's Day is a predictable known
>factor that should have been given greater weight. This is an
>unnecessary spot of trouble that could and should have been avoided.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Some thoughts:
I'm intentionally putting this one toward the end so hopefully all of
you will be thinking of the other items first and primarily.
I'm writing this in response to one note I received personally, several
items on the discussion list, and because I want to be sure everybody
here is on the same page regarding how decisions are made in organizing
DLV and who makes them.
There has been some chat in the Discussion List showing that there is
the perception out there that major decisions about DLV, particularly
scheduling, are being made by some kind of a "core group" or "cabal",
and that others virtually have no say in what goes on.
Let me assure you that this is not the case.
If there is any "core group", it is this group here, those on the ORG
list, which now numbers almost 40.
If there's any other group that agrees among themselves what to do or
how to vote, I'm certainly not part of it, and I'm unaware of it.
This group here is the only group of movers, shakers, and decision
makers that exists within DLV. (That I'm aware of, anyway.)
A few quick counts I made last DLV showed that we, the ORG group, always
made up at least 25% of those present at any DLV activity, which is most
certainly a valid statistically-significant subgroup and definitely
represents the DLV population as a whole.
Most of the decisions concerning the who-what-where of our individual
activities are made by those who put forth the effort to plan those
activities. That's the way it should be. Those of us who are not
organizing any particular activity do have the right to advise and
suggest, of course, but not the right to micromanage.
Most of our major strategic and tactical decisions are made by us here,
informally, by consensus. If there's disagreement, we solve things the
American way, (sorry, Michelle and Laura :) we vote.
One thing I do feel very strongly about is the principle that those who
do the work (that's us) should be the ones making the decisions.
Although we always want to consider input from the DLV population as a
whole, we can't stop and take a survey or vote when a decision has to be
made, especially when input has already been actively sought.
For the 4th year in a row now, we've announced our tentative dates on
the first of August, allowing a month-long call for comments. This
has always been conspicuously announced and the long-time attendees
know to expect it.
This year a total of one comment was received regarding the proposed
dates, that being about the weather.
We now have a motion to adjust the dates on the table. Let's deal with
that and let it carry or fail. When the motion has run its course, if
some still are not happy, they are of course free to move for
(additional) adjustments.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Summary schedule of activities:
This schedule is preliminary and is subject to change
without notice.
Monday, May 3:
10:00am Trip to Rhyolite (Rhyolite)
1:00pm Lunch with or without Ginger (Sahara buffet)
5:00pm Happy Hour (TBD)
6:00pm Milano's dinner (Milano's)
8:00pm Welcome Celebration (Flex or Spotlight)
Tuesday, May 4:
12:30pm Boat cruise (Lake Mead)
1:00pm Lunch with or without Ginger (Sahara buffet)
1:30pm Bowling (Bowling alley)
5:00pm Happy Hour (TBD)
Wednesday, May 5:
9:00am Air Tours (Henderson Executive Airport)
1:00pm Lunch with or without Ginger (Sahara buffet)
2:00pm Shopping expedition (Primm or LV Premium Outlets)
5:00pm Happy Hour (Hard Rock Cafe)
6:00pm Hard Rock Dinner (Hard Rock Cafe)
Ev Secretaries Night (HRC)
10:00pm Karaoke (Goodtimes)
Ev Limo Tour (TBD)
Thursday, May 6:
10:00am Art tour (TBD)
1:00pm Lunch with or without Ginger (Sahara buffet)
PM Indoor skydiving (Flyaway)
PM Glamour Boutique Open House (Glamour Boutique)
4:00pm High Tea (TBD)
5:00pm Happy Hour (TBD)
Friday, May 7:
AM-PM Golf (Desert Rose)
1:00pm Lunch with or without Ginger (Sahara buffet)
5:00pm Happy Hour (Carluccio's)
6:00pm Carluccio's Dinner (Carluccio's Tivoli Gardens)
7:30pm Annual Mixer (Goodtimes)
Saturday, May 8:
10:00am Gun Show (Cashman Field)
11:00am SBS Garden Party (Mindy's residence)
5:00pm Happy Hour (TBD)
12:00m Rocky Horror Picture Show (Highly tentative)
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Administrivia:
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