From: Annie (annie@geekbabe.com)
Date: Fri May 23 2003 - 08:30:31 CDT
In this mailing:
Org List
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Restroom comments
Restroom at Bellagio
In search of an answer
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This mailing:
We might as well call this the "special restroom edition" of this list.
This contains the restroom incident reports that came in on the survey
plus a couple other related items.
In particular, I would like everybody to pay close attention to the
very detailed first-person report in incident #2 below. This is a very
explicit example of how the poor judgement of some can have tragic
effects upon others.
I would like to move this topic (and related topics) forward.
We now have more than enough detail on what happened, but we need to
realize why it happened, and most important, we need to discuss what we
need to do to prevent this number of restroom incidents at DLV's to
come.
Comments?
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Restroom comments:
These are the restroom incident comments that were received on the
DLV 2003 survey.
I would like to open the floor for comments and discussion involving
this topic. I've added some of my comments to the text.
I would like to see the discussion aimed toward solutions to the problem
of increasing restroom incidents, as opposed to defending actions,
rehashing the details or pointing fingers.
. . . . .
+1. I was politely told by a security guard at Bellagio that me "and my
+friends" should use the men's room. This was at around 3am on Saturday
+morning.
This is quite contrary to what Gina and others have told about the
attitude at the Bellagio.
I wasn't there, but I was told two things by somebody who was, and those
were that there was a restroom incident, and that the group did get a
bit rowdy at times.
. . . . .
+2. I was with a group Friday night that had several of the girls go
+into a ladies bathroom at the same time. Unfortunately they also stayed
+in there too long. I met them later and was about to go into the ladies
+restroom when a security guard stopped me abrubtly and demanded my I.D.
+I asked why and he curtly said he had the right and that I was to give
+him my I.D. NOW! I complied and he then asked me where I was headed. I
+said to the Ladies room. He shook his head emphaticly and said no I
+wasn't telling me that my driver's license said I was a man. Un
+beknonst to me, a complaint had been given as to the other girls being
+in there and he rudely told me I was forbidden by the "Treasure Island
+Hotel" policy togho into the restroom. I tried to explain my position
+as being transgendered and that I certainly couldn't go in the mens. He
+ryley smiled and said I had no other choice but to leave. We were
+welcome to eat their food, drink their alcholl and gamble to our
+hearts, content but that "YOU PEOPLE" are not allowed in the women's
+bathroom.
+I was both angered and stunned but refused to show it. I had to go, I
+couldn't wait, so without even an escourt I went into the "mens"
+bathroom and quickly tried to find a stall. Men were quite shocked to
+see a "woman" entering their domain. Several moved back up against the
+wall while a couple disbielieving shook their heads. Once safely inside
+the stall I began to shake and cry. I was so mortified and it
+wasbecoming humiliating. One man asked another if I was a fag. Another
+said that I was probably a drag queen, which he replied to as "What's
+the difference?" Tears began to roll down my face as I tried to gather
+the courage to face them. Iwaited a few more minutes, hoping that they
+left. I din't even bother to wash my hands, I just beelined it out of
+there as fast as I could. One man practiclly died of shock as I left.
+He backed up to check the sign to see if he had accidentlly started to
+go into the wrong bathroom.
+I was very scared, sad an angry. My makeup was ruined, my spirits
+saddened and all I wanted to do was to leave and go back home. I went
+over to a secluded area and sat down and wept.
This is a very unfortunate and tragic incident. This totally ruined what
could otherwise be a memorable vacation for one of our sisters. :(
Between the later part of DLV and the time these comments came in I had
heard several versions of this story, all which suffered from multi-hop
distortions. Another report of this same incident came in as well and
appears below. This verifies the location of the incident and the
approximate time.
I would like to commend the person who sent this in. This incident was
a most difficult thing to go through.
I'm going to make some very frank comments here, and please understand
that I am in no way discounting the pain that was encountered during
this incident, but I think it's important that we realize what happened,
exactly why it happened, and what we can do to avoid things like this
happening in the future.
I see two gross errors that precipitated, or escalated this incident.
1. Going to the ladies room in a group. Very poor judgement. Enough said
on that.
2. When the guard asked for ID, that should have been the clue that she
and the group were Persona Non Grata and she (all of them) should have
left the property immediately. Do not pass go, do not collect $200!
The sad part of this is that the person who was on the receiving end
of most of the hassle was apparently not one of those who was in the
group who used the ladies room improperly.
As to understanding the why, I'm wondering about a few things ...
Please pardon the devil's advocate mode here, but I feel a need to
question a few things.
Were these ladies dressed appropriately and were they behaving
appropriately for this venue? Were they under the influence and not
showing the best judgement? (If they went to the ladies room in a group,
I think it's a possibility that their judgement all around was not the
best.)
Was Treasure Island the best choice of an after-Annual-Mixer (I assume)
stomping ground? Yes, yes, I know that TI is trying to become more Old
Vegas and less Disneyland, but TI is still pre-op in that transition.
Ladies (gentlemen) we need to learn from this one, and we need to
encourage our people to use good judgement and to dress and act
appropriately, and most of all to realize when they should get out
of a situation or off a property immediately.
Las Vegas may be a very open environment, but it's not a free-for-all
and it can be a Bad Big City that can come out and bite ya.
Comments?
. . . . .
+3. When we used public washrooms we looked for rest rooms that were
+"family Friendly" or for restrooms that were "out of the way" and did
+not seem to have alot of traffic, we got in got out and therefore
+avoided any problems-
This is a very pragmatic and realistic approach. I believe that most of
the restroom incidents that occurred this year happened, at least in
part, due to the fact that those involved were too obvious. I thank the
person who reported this, and I commend her for taking this approach. I
wish others would follow this example.
. . . . .
+4. Not really a big issue but at the golf course they asked not to use
+the ladies room in the clubhouse.
Golfers? (I know many of you are on here.) Comments?
. . . . .
+5. (Note: This was received in the restroom comments box.) I did not
+have any restroom problems, but I did have trouble with the desk clerk
+at the San Remo when I checked out. He would not take my credit card in
+my female name because it did not match my male D/L. He finally took my
+male credit card. The male D/L matched the male credit card, but did
+not match my female appearance. I will not stay at the San Remo again.
+Sorry.
If this had happened to me, I would have reported it to the GM of the
property. A rude person on the desk is not what any hotel wants!
. . . . .
+6. At Treasure Island we were forced to use the mens restroom, and one
+of us was accosted while in there by 3 men. Security did not offer to
+escort her or offer assistance. In talking with the head of security
+was not at all helpful with the issue. This took place at 3 am.
A second first-person report of this same incident.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Restroom at Bellagio:
Mary Beth writes:
All:
>I would like to take this opportunity to set the record straight
>regarding exactly what happened to me at the Bellagio.
>First of all, I will admit that the 2001 incident was the result of bad
>judgement on my part. It happened at Rio, I was the only T-girl there,
>and to the best of my knowledge no other DLV participant was at the Rio
>at the time, and possibly for the duration of the event. I learned from
>that experience not to go into a restroom with a GG (which was the
>source of the problem).
>As to the Bellagio incident - I was dressed in appropriate, casual
>clothes. It was around 2:30 am, and there were not very many people
>around. I used the bathroom which Gina told me was recommended that we
>use while at the bar. As far as I could tell, there was no one else in
>that bathroom from the time I walked in to the time I walked out. I
>went in, urinated (sitting down, not standing) quickly washed my hands
>and got right out. I was in that bathroom for not more than 3 minutes
>yet when I came out a security guard approached me and politely said
>that (quoting exactly here) "I appreciate how you are dressed but I
>have to ask that you and your friends please use the gentlemen's room."
>I said "sorry", and walked back to the bar. That was the entire
>exchange.
>I was completely quiet while in the bathroom. I don't know if the guard
>saw me walk into the bathroom, or was alerted by an undercover, or by
>someone monitoring the security cameras. I do not feel I did anything
>out of line, and tried my best to be as inconspicuous as possible. I
>did not do anything to embarrass the group and I deny having "caused"
>this incident by doing anything other than simply walking into a
>bathroom which I was told was ok to use. It was never my intention to
>cause a security alert. In retrospect it seems like a case of simple
>bad timing.
>I hope this will put a stop to any exaggerated versions of this story
>that may be floating around.
Thanks for sending this in. First-person reports are always the best,
and do stop distorted versions of the story from circulating as truth.
It may be the case that you were the victim of somebody else's action.
If that is true, it will not be the first time it happened.
I don't know. I wasn't there. I was told two things about that
gathering, those being: 1. There was a restroom incident. 2. The group
did get a bit vocal and rowdy at times. Since DLV, I've received two
more first person reports that basically restated the above two points.
The only significant new data point was a statement to the effect that
"... security officers seemed to be hanging around."
Again, please pardon me for the Devils Advocate mode. If I say something
here that somebody does not like, I'm sorry.
Something did attract the attention of management or security.
It could have been an individual catching the unwanted eye of a guard on
routine patrol, or it could have been reports coming from their
dispatcher following a complaint, but something did get their attention.
I'm speculating here, but I have a feeling that the sounds coming from
the bar sounded more like the guffaws of a frat party than the giggling
of a hen party. If this is not the case, please correct me.
For whatever reason, the group ended up on the radar screen.
I hate to say this, but large gatherings (especially when alcohol is
the primary item on the menu) of our people in mainstream situations
may just not be appropriate.
Yes, I know there are some callings for more mainstream venues, but if
the group is going to attract enough attention that we are singled out
and denied full use of the property, we need to re-think things.
One very good example of a well-behaved group in a mainstream venue was
that of the after-DLV Monday gathering at Tropicana. The dress was
varied from very casual to dressy, but everybody behaved as a lady and
blended well. I don't think the group attracted any unwanted attention
at all. There was occasional chit-chat between people in the group and
others, but there was no in-your-face or "look at me" type behavior.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
In search of an answer:
Yvonne writes:
>I kinda remember hearing a saying during my younger days when I was
>involved in community services and public performances: " You are only
>as good as your LAST performance ".
>Lets deal with these issues with creativity, privacy, fair-ness,
>sensitivity and firm-ness and move on (not to dwell on this too long),
>before it becomes a mountain or a monster that eats away at and
>destroys the concept, name, and the good of what DLV is today that many
>people have worked hard on to develop. Lets keep this objective and to
>the issues and NOT subjective to a person(s) or individual(s).
Very true. We do need to concentrate on the solitions and not on the
problems. I think those who were primaries or catalysts in these
incidents are well aware of this, and we don't need any finger-pointing
or witch-hunting.
We also need to let people know that it is the behavior and not the
individuals we object to.
>I will dread the day that venues closes their doors, or have people
>turn away from attending DLV due to issues like a continual reputation
>of: in-appropriate dress/behavior and restroom
>embarassments/enforcements.
That is why we need to deal with this now.
I don't think we need any massive changes to the model or format of DLV,
and I don't think the addition of rules, regulations, etc. are the
answer.
I think part of the answer is to get the word out, both through formal
channels and through informal channels such as word of mouth and good
old-fashioned peer pressure, that appropriate dress and behavior is
required for those who come to our activities.
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