From: Annie (annie@geekbabe.com)
Date: Wed May 21 2003 - 08:53:27 CDT
In this mailing:
Org List
This mailing
Activity ideas
Thread on the discussion list
Restroom and behavior
Restrooms
Administrivia
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Org List:
This is the DLV 2003 Organizational Mailing List (dlvorg@geekbabe.com)
Replies to this message will be forwarded to the DLVORG list and not
the DLV-Announce or DLV-Discuss list.
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This mailing:
Before we get on to the major discussion at hand, there are a couple
other items on the agenda.
The survey is now closed as of this morning, and the response was over
50% of our attendees, which is considered a phenomenal response for a
survey of this type.
I don't have the numbers crunched yet, but it's obvious that the event
as a whole and the activities in general were very highly rated.
I'll be posting the activity suggestions and the restroom comments here
in the ORG list after they are tabulated, and the general comments with
the report to the discussion list. I hope to have this out by this
weekend.
We will have the annual Call For Volunteers coming up in the next few
days so some of the new volunteers will be joining us shortly. We'll
also make the transition from the org03 list to the org04 list at that
time, but that will be totally transparent for most of you.
Discussion continues in this forum on the dress and behavior issues.
I think it's very important to understand what exactly happened, and
why these incidents happened, but not let these issues distract from
our other summarization of the 2003 event and our preliminary plans
for the 2004 event.
For the restroom issues, I also think it's important that we concentrate
primarily on first-person reports. These incidents have been told from
person to person to person and many versions I've been told suffer from
multi-hop distortion.
In my comments, I will try to concentrate on what I've seen, or what
I have been told directly.
Unfortunately, some of what has been brought up, and will be brought up
I'm sure does involve people who are on this list, or those who are
close friends of people on this list, including friends of mine.
This can make the subjects very touchy, and difficult to approach.
Please try to keep the thinking and feelings rational. Remember, the
issues are about the dress and the behavior, not about the person.
I'll be redirecting restroom and behavior comments from the discussion
list to here (ORG list) for now.
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Activity ideas:
Mindy writes:
>hey just some ideas.. as much as diane and i love the limo tour we will
>probbly pass next year. to much of the same... instead next year diane
>wants to hostess a "big show pitty party" at our house.. something fun
>and over the top for those who cant afford the big show and limo tour.
>would like to have a drag show.. those girls who want to do drag but
>are afraid of doing a public show..
Ok, I'll start the yearly activity suggestion database with this one.
History has shown that half of our people at most will do the big
non-Saturday show, same for the limo tour. This leaves half the group or
more as potential attendees for something like this.
>2nd idea is an "over 50 pj party" play some music from the 60's and
>pass out on the floor around 10 pm *LOL*
LOL
Yes, as of next year there will be MORE of us who are 50 or over. :(
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Thread on the discussion list:
Monique writes:
>Sisters, while all the issues we are raising about dress, restroom
>issues, comportment, etc. is certainly worthwile discussing in a
>'general manner', I'm beginning to have concerns that these topics,
>esp. any negative issues, how big or little we on the DLVOrg group
>considers them, does not have place in the DLVDisc group. And the only
>reason I'm saying this is that I do not wish to see our first time
>DLV'03 sisters, or any new first time sisters attending DLV'04, have
>any issue or an excuse for not attending next year.
>Let's be a bit more discreet and careful about how we respond to DLV
>incidents, dress, etc., esp.for the sake of our new and future
>attendees. We've gotten alot of good and some (few) negative feedback
>via the DLVDisc group. The DLV'03 survey results will be out soon so
>we can digest all this and plan for a better and bigger DLV'04.
>IMO, this is what the DLVOrg group is for, to put these issues to bed
>or at least minimize them so that our DLV attendees don't have a
>problem and enjoy their vacation. Agreed Sisters?
Yes, and if any heat should fall on anybody for the thread on the
discussion list, it should be on me as list moderator, for letting the
thread start and for responding.
Let's let the thread die down for now.
However, this topic has been mentioned on the survey general comments,
which will be posted. (The restroom reports and activity suggestions
are definitely organizational in nature, and will go here.) I expect
there will be some follow-up discussion at that time. I do assure you
that the thread will not evolve into various meta-discussions and will
remain on topic. I won't let it degenerate into a more-heat-than-light
discussion either.
The survey results (I'm preparing the report now) show incredibly high
ratings, so I don't think any permanent damage has been done by these
incidents.
I also don't want to again open the can of worms of withholding
information. That is a Bad Thing and should not be done unless there
is a very compelling reason to do so.
>Please do not get me wrong, we had some issues at DLV'03 that needs to
>be addressed prior to DLV'04. I simply don't think that the DLVDisc
>group is the place to solve these issues, IMO.
No, it is not the place to solve any issues, nor is it the place to
handle any organizational business.
I do think it's very important to let the people know that we are
aware of the issues, and that they will be dealt with. One thing I
want to assure people of, especially the newbees, is that it is the
people who want to follow the rules and dress and act appropriately
that we want back.
>One final DLVOrg;03 Group Comment. I think all of us that was involed
>with DLV'03 on the DLVOrg committee did a great job this year and we
>deserve to hug each other for a job Well Done! Annie, in her 7th year
>has done a GREAT JOB again and I recommend that each of us buy her a
>drink and dinner for her hard work when DLV'04 rolls around!
Thanks, Monique. That will certainly blow my diet. :)
>Comments and Complaints...Last Chance, IMO.
Very few complaints on my part. I do see some opportunities for
improvement in a few areas, but in general this year came off quite
well. The numerical ratings on the survey are significantly higher than
last year. Yes, I'll have the report posted shortly, I'm writing that
now, so it does show us we are doing something right.
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Restroom and behavior:
Aiko writes:
>I'm offering the following note to the org group for discussion; once
>again, the issues of restrooms and inappropriate attire. Although it
>sounds like a broken record, I honestly feel that these issues are
>about the only thing that can hurt the reputation of DLV and perhaps
>spoil or taint the vacation that many of us look forward to for an
>entire year.
>Through some private e-mails with some of the DLV girls, I feel that
>the vast majority of us agree with the true concept of DLV; That DLV
>is a vacation among friends who respect each other's feelings. I feel
>I speak for the “silent majority” with regards to the desire to blend,
>not having an obsession with getting attention, and to just simply have
>fun while enjoying the companionship of friends.
>It appears that a few individuals have taken advantage of the laid
>back”organizing style of DLV, and perhaps perceive DLV to be an open
>ticket to a dressing free-for-all, or a license to hang out in the
>ladies rooms of hotels, both of which have resulted in embarrassment to
>many and penalties upon all of us.
>Some of the girls I've communicated with were not aware of the
>following incidents, but did wonder why we were being treated as second
>class citizens in a few circumstances. I may offend a few individuals
>by being very blunt in this note, but I feel it is time for the silent
>majority to be heard. Those who are offended may be the exact ones
>this note is directed to. Since this is being sent only to the org
>group for discussion, I, along with others, would truly welcome the
>opportunity to hear the other side of the story”.
>Restrooms:
>Fortunately, I only heard of three restroom incidents this year at
>DLV. However, two of them were the cause of the remaining 98% of us
>(the majority) either being under close scrutiny by security in one
>hotel (Bellagio) or having to use an “alternative” restroom in the other
>hotel.
>Unfortunately, it seems that the incident at the Bellagio this year
>was caused by an individual that also (supposedly) had a restroom
>incident in 2001 in another of the major hotels.
>I am wondering about the reason(s) that anyone should have a negative
>restroom incident, let alone two. The DLV restroom guidelines seem
>very straightforward and simple to follow: discretely go in, do your
>thing, and discretely get out. Is it because of a need to either be
>seen or the desire to just hang out in the ladies room with gg's
>present. Again, there were only a few negative incidents this year,
>however, it seems that they occurred with the same common denominators.
>The second incident was the result of an individual who was, again,
>inappropriate dressed in a crowded casino, which undoubtedly drew
>negative attention, then making an obvious beeline to the ladies room
>adjacent to the casino. Naturally, an expected confrontation by
>management occurred, resulting in the "alternative" restroom.
>The third incident occurred in another hotel and was the result of a
>group (4) of girls spending too much time and talking too loud in the
>ladies room, again with gg’s present (sound familiar). Expectedly, a
>complaint was received by hotel security. Heaven help any of us that
>needed to use the restroom after that confronted by a redneck security
>guard who insisted that you use the men's” room in this instance, with
>males present. I feel deeply for the horrible embarrassment one of our
>girls suffered.
>The individuals involved may or may not pass in appearance. However,
>the ability or inability to physically pass is overshadowed by the
>blantant disregard to make any attempt to blend. I believe this is what
>some people refer to as the in you face attitude. I truly have a hard
>time understanding the reasoning for causing problems and embarrassment
>for the rest of us. Is this “in your face” attitude due to the lack of
>knowledge, a need for attention (be it positive or negative),
>voyeurism, or just a total disregard for the basic standards that are
>outlined in the registration of DLV.
>These particular incidents may seem trivial to some, but I honestly
>believe that embarrassment to others caused by thoughtless acts of
>selfishness are never trivial. I honestly feel that any thoughtless
>acts of selfishness that bring embarrassment to anyone or the group is
>considered an insult to everyone who works hard at NOT bringing adverse
>attention to themselves nor others.
>Inappropriate Dress:
>We've already driven around this block a couple of times before.
>However, since this is the org discussion group, I would like to state
>that I, for one, support the enforcement of appropriate dress,
>DEFINITELY for a mainstream activity.
>I also totally support the idea that if a person is dressed
>inappropriately for an activity, that she be asked to change and is not
>invited to that activity until compliance. I feel this should help
>minimize the embarrassment of the majority, caused by the very few.
I would like to move this discussion forward by backing up a few spaces,
a few years perhaps, and be sure we're all on the same page with regard
to what DLV was intended to be, and is to be ...
1. DLV is a vacation, with emphasis on celebrating life and enjoying
each other's company. The emphasis is not on dressing for the sake of
dressing, dressing to impress, or dressing to attract attention.
2. DLV is based on reality, not fantasy.
3. In regard to mainstream situations, our focus has always been on
blending in, not standing out.
I hope all of us are in agreement on these points. If anybody disagrees
with any of these, please speak now.
Yes, our style has been laid back, and it has worked. Unfortunately
we may have to be somewhat more authoritarian if we are to keep DLV
on track with the above principles.
No, I'm not hearing any call to "pull back" in the dress department.
The style of dress, and the public presentation of the vast majority
of our people was just fine. We need to continue to recognize this
and say so.
Ironically, it's been those who were conspicuously good examples of
how to dress and behave that have written in asking if their dress
and behavior were appropriate.
To get to the bottom line on this subject, the incidents this year
seemed to be of the following types:
1. Inappropriate dress, particularly in mainstream situations.
2. Improper use of public restrooms.
3. Blatant attention-getting behavior.
If DLV is to continue within the principles outlined previously, we
cannot tolerate any of the above three items. If anybody does not
agree with this, please speak now.
The solution is what we are tasked with. I'm not sure what the
solution should be.
For years DLV has not had a dress code. We didn't need one. I *hate*
dress codes! I hated them when I was a kid and I hate them now.
Dress codes are kind of a dilemma. Most people don't need them and
those who do need them won't follow them anyway!
As I think back to the incidents of improper dress or behavior this
year, most (all?) of them were already covered by the Conditions Of
Participation and the Dress Guidelines. If I may quote ...
From the dress guidelines:
+For all activities, everybody is asked to please dress and act in good
+taste, and in a manner appropriate to each activity.
...
+Clubwear is appropriate for private parties in the evening and some
+nightclubs, and that's about it. Definitely not for anything during the
+day, and not for many things at night. This would be appropriate for
+our two dance outings, and some clubwear items may be ok for our
+Welcome Celebration and Annual Mixer, but not for other DLV activities.
+Such things as cheerleader outfits, schoolgirl outfits, AB or
+transgenerational items, nurse uniforms, fetish outfits, etc., are
+appropriate for a costume party, but not for mainstream public, and not
+for DLV activities.
...
+When selecting an outfit for any DLV activity, consider all of the
+following:
+ * Your personal style, your likes and dislikes, your comfort level.
+ * Your age, height, weight, body type, and fitness level.
+ * The time, place, and circumstance of the activity.
... and from the Conditions Of Participation:
+2. That you dress and act as a lady or a gentleman, in accordance with
+the gender you are presenting at any given time.
+ a. That your dress and behavior be appropriate to the time, place and
+ circumstance of each activity.
+ b. That you refrain from dressing or acting in a manner intended to
+ flaunt transgenderism, or a manner which is primarily intended to
+ attract attention.
+ d. That you be polite and courteous when dealing with other DLV
+ participants, vendors, merchants, hotel/restaurant/showroom staff,
+ and the general public.
There you have it, ladies. It appears to me that just about everything
is already covered. Some people either a. did not read, b. read but did
not understand, c. understood, but did not think it applied to them, or
d. were so clueless they had no idea they were violating the
regulations.
From what I can see, we don't need a more detailed dress code. We do,
however, need to get the word out that we are serious about this, and
those improperly dressed, especially for mainstream activities, will
be sent back to change.
Ditto about restrooms. We said all of this in black and white:
+If you use a public ladies room, be a lady, and be discreet. Get in, do
+your thing, and get out, all very quietly. Don't push the envelope. And
+please, DON'T GO TO THE LADIES ROOM IN GROUPS.
+Unless you do something to call attention to yourself, it's very
+unlikely you will be confronted.
...
+1. Use a public ladies room only if you absolutely have to go.
+2. Be as non-obvious as possible.
+3. NEVER NEVER EVER GO TO A PUBLIC LADIES ROOM IN GROUPS!
+4. NEVER NEVER EVER GO TO A PUBLIC LADIES ROOM IN GROUPS!
What's sad about restroom incidents is that often times the ones taking
the flak are not the ones violating the guidelines.
Let's continue this discussion by concentrating on the path to a solution.
Comments, ladies? (gentlemen?)
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Restrooms:
Kate writes:
>If we don't let the Flaunters and washroom protocol ignorers know that
>they are hurtning us we might find out too late that some Casino/Hotel,
>Restaurant or other venue popular to DLV will be designated "OFF
>LIMITS" to us and that would spoil what has become a nice way for us
>all to spend a week as girls in the best place I can possibly imagine
>to it.
I share this concern. What I don't want to see happen is for people to
abuse a place which has a liberal restroom policy, resulting in a
crackdown or ejection.
>We would then have no one to blame but ourselves for not doing what
>should have been done.
Very true. You can be assured that action will be taken. I don't think
the answer is more policies or codes or guidelines or whatever, but to
get the word out that violations will not be tolerated. (And, of course,
to back up those words with action if necessary.)
>The other alternative is to feed them poops instead of peeps next year
>(made from only the finest ingredients), in the hope that they take the
>hint.
Look at: http://www.tenholder.net/peeps/peepaftr.htm
Item starts at: http://www.tenholder.net/peeps/
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Administrivia:
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