From: Annie (annie@geekbabe.com)
Date: Sat May 24 2003 - 11:15:26 CDT
In this mailing:
Org List
This mailing
Public behavior
Restrooms
Bellagio incident
Golf course restroom
Administrivia
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Org List:
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This mailing:
We continue the restroom discussion below.
A few activity-related items have come in and these will appear in the
next mailing, which will be the first one which includes the recent
volunteers.
This will also be the last mailing that those who need to reconfirm
their desire to stay on this list, but have not done so, will receive.
If you are on this list and do not appear in the "credits" section of
this year's large final mailing, you will need to send in a note if you
wish to remain on this list.
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Public behavior:
Leah writes:
>I have always held the opinion that 'laying the groundwork' is the way
>to go on some things..... such as restrooms when a larger group is
>present in a mainstream facility. I know it is an unpopular view with
>most, I understand all the infringements and wanting to express your
>gender identitiy freely and don't wish to start a thread about all of
>that. What I do want to bring to light is the management's
>responsibilities to their other patrons.
>If you are in a group and only if one of you is read, then you are all
>tagged. Fact of life. Once it is known then yes, certainly Security
>will be on the lookout. Hell, they don't have much else to do most
>times anyway and can devote more attention to the group. If they
>received a specific complaint from another patron then they are
>obligated to look into the situation.
>Now, what is the first initial reaction of the homophobic? 'Hey,
>there's some perverts over there!". Fact of life.
It is a fact of life that much of the mainstream public has no
experience with the t* community, and are really unaware of what we are
and who we are.
>Putting myself in a Security Guard's position I have to say that I
>would at least have to check out the situation. If only just for
>safety's sake to the other patrons.
>People as a whole are not aware of the intricacies of being
>transgendered and the first knee jerk reaction would be that there is
>something more going on than just a group of people living their lives.
>To the extreme, keep in mind that Security may also be thinking that
>you are in disguise for a potential robbery or assault. This is a
>little far-fetched but still may enter the equation. This past
>Halloween is a perfect example as most if not all casinos would not
>allow people to wear their costume masks inside.
>This day and age is not equipped to deal with transgenderism on the
>whole...... believe me, there is no one who wants to go about their
>life more than me but I am also aware of the fact that my choice is
>still not accepted in mainstream society. I govern myself and my
>actions accordingly but not to the point of skulking in the corners and
>avoiding contact.
>The restroom issue is always on top of the list...... which is why you
>see it discussed in many forums around the internet. Personally, I see
>nothing wrong with setting up a facility in advance with Security
>assuming that eventually someone in the group will need to use it. I
>do not look at this as a 'sellout' but rather a 'compromise'.
>Furthermore, that Security Guard at T.I. was indeed out of line by not
>clearing a bathroom for that girl to use.
Devil's advocate mode: Are they obligated to do this, legally or
ethically?
>Most policies are 'gender
>specific' (which opens up the argument of sex vs. gender lol) but
>almost all I know of will have someone pave the way for you to use the
>facility, or direct you to a more remote or private one.
I see a request to use the mens room as a veiled request to leave the
property. I would think any guard would know that it is a very bad idea
to send somebody dressed en femme to a mens room.
>Well, the Camay people just called and want their box back so I better
>go......later.
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Restrooms:
Aiko writes:
>>Las Vegas may be a very open environment, but it's not a free-for-all
>>and it can be a Bad Big City that can come out and bite ya.
>Years ago, showing my age, Las Vegas had the reputation of 'Sin City'
>which in fact, it probably lived up to. Currently however, the trend
>to market family entertainment in several hotels has greatly tempered
>this perception.
Actually I'm seeing the pendulum swinging in the opposite direction at
this day, hour, minute and second. The Disneyland experiment failed.
The last several casinos that have opened (Palms, Green Valley, Tuscany,
Cannery, etc.) are definitely aimed at those of age.
TI, in fact, is trying to attract more non-family adults.
"Las Vegas, what happens here stays here" is their new PR slogan (or is
it their motto?) :)
But yes, those properties that (still) promote themselves as family
vacation spots are more touchy that the Old Vegas places.
>I would like to repeat the concept of DLV as a gathering of 'friends to
>have a vacation to celebrate life and enjoy each other's company'. The
>manner we dress and act should be of a presentation that should not
>attract undue attention that would embarrass others nor ourselves.
>Leah's comment in a recent mailing says it perfectly: 'I doubt most of
>the girls would wear something of that nature if they were going out by
>themselves for instance.'
This is *very* true.
>>Yes, I know there are some callings for more mainstream venues, but if
>>the group is going to attract enough attention that we are singled out
>>and denied full use of the property, we need to re-think things.
>It may be interesting to see if those that are calling for an increase
>in mainstream venues could get together among themselves privately,
>plan a few mainstream activities that are not associated with DLV, and
>pull them off without having any embarrassing incidents nor bring any
>negative attention to DLV.
>This would give them some experience at organizing a mainstream type
>activity for future discussion.
Hmmmm ... If I'm hearing you correctly, and please correct me if I'm
wrong, you're suggesting that those who have mainstream activities
as their priority in life organize them and make it clear they are
doing this independently of DLV? Is this what you mean?
Different concept, I admit.
>>>I will dread the day that venues closes their doors, or have people
>>>turn away from attending DLV due to issues like a continual
>>>reputation of: in-appropriate dress/behavior and restroom
>>>embarassments/enforcements.
>>That is why we need to deal with this now.
[bobbitt]
>I'm going to put an unpopular thought out for discussion. That a
>business would close its doors on us is a real possibility and would be
>tragic if it were due to just a very few individuals who just didn't
>get it.
Although it's unlikely, it is a possibility. In Nevada, use of private
property that is open to the public is "at will" and they can legally
exclude anybody from the property as a whole or from a portion of the
property (such as a restroom) for almost any reason or whim.
(IANAL, but one who is told me this.)
>If an individual is so dense as to not 'get the hint' that he/she is
>not complying with the established norm of the group through peer
>pressure, especially at a mainstream activity, unfortunately that
>person(s) may need to be told in a direct manner by two or more of the
>DLV organizers the need to comply.
Yes, and it is up to us, the ORG group, to determine how this will take
place, if indeed it is necessary.
>If it actually happens, I think it would occur only once for the word
>to get out.
I would hate to have to make an example out of any of our people, but
if somebody insists on being a jerk, it may come to it. :(
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Bellagio incident:
LeeAnna writes:
>Hi Annie,
Hewwo :)
>I too was at the Friday 2am get together at the Bellagio.
>When I had my car parked, all 3 of us were treated with respect. When
>we went looking for the meeting area at the bar, we asked directions
>and were treated well.
>As we joined the group, there was a GG at the bar raising heck about
>something..... and was not being much of a lady nor were the guys with
>her being very mature. I do not recall what that was about... I do not
>think we were part of it.
>When security showed up for the GG and took care of that problem...
>they could not help to have seen us there. Nothing was said at that
>time. I went to the Ladies Room, one I was directed to, without
>incident. Fast in, did my business lady like, and left fast. Not even a
>second look from the GGs in there.?? This was at about 2:15am.
>As I walked back to the bar, there was a group of 5 security types
>talking about "some crossdressers at the bar!". I stopped and asked
>them if there was a problem with us and they said no. They just never
>see any of us in there. I said that I hear that CDs are nice people and
>they all laughed and said thanks... them knowing damn well I was a CD...
>it was all in good humor.
>I found the GG incident taken care of and a young man being led away
>by security when I got back to the bar. All seemed well and fun after
>that.
>The 3 of us left at about 3am... without incident. I was not aware of
>any restroom problems that others had and I feel bad for them... that
>seems very unfair to the one that was made to go into the mens room.
>VERY!
On one hand, I think of a request to use the mens room as a thinly
disguised hint to leave the property. On the other hand, most guards
and casino managers are totally clueless WRT the t* community and
the various aspects of gender identity.
>One of the dancers from the Las Vegas {Lounge} (6'2" but cute)
>was there in the group but she was just looked at from afar.
>Annie, this type of thing really sucks... and I have seen it for the
>many years I have been out in public. It is always the responsibility
>of each and every one of us to be real world and not fantasy world when
>we are in PUBLIC... gays are still harassed... we are still
>harassed.... it just happens.
>It is not fair, but it just happens.
Yes, I know it's not fair and I know these incidents do happen sometimes
without any overt misbehavior.
>It is still each of our responsibility to make sure we are not the
>actual catalyst..... I feel that the GG that was arguing at the bar at
>around 2am was at least part of the catalyst for our problems this
>time...... and it snowballed from there..... I know that Gina is more
>aware of what was going on with that GG than I am because she was there
>when it all started.
This may have put the group on the radar screen, or at least provided
another blip.
I'm hoping that Gina will comment about this, since she is the most
well acquainted with the property and its staff.
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Golf course restroom:
Mindy writes:
>well heres the story on the golf course.. according to the tourn host
>at the course at least 2 of the gals used the stalls in the clubhouse
>womens room standing up.
Thanks, Mindy. That answers most of the "why" question.
>his opinion is that had they been sitting there probley would have
>been no complaint. he was as upset haveing to tell us not to use the
>womens room in the clubhouse as some of us were hearing it. anyway
>this has in no way damaged our relationship with the golf course and
>we are already invited back for next year. between now and then Lee
>and i will work on a solution that works for everybody at the course.
Ok, thanks. Hopefully the golf course will not be a concern next year,
with reminders to use restrooms properly.
>i know this wont help anybody involved in previous incidents but
>usually i handle bathroom issues in the following manner.
>1st of course there is no bathroom issue till someone creates one.
>most of the time it is from somebody reacting without knowledge. in
>most cases when i have educated the people in charge they tend to bend
>over backwards trying to find a solution.
>the best examples of this are the san remo (private bathroom) and the
>boardwalk (unrestricted access to womens room upstairs).
>at smaller places i have had success just warning the bartender or
>waitstaff that i will be using the facilities and they sort of keep an
>eye out. 2 things to remember when you are the one who must deal with
>a bathroom issue.
>1st dont make it a confrontation, make it a chance to educate. often
>you must go up several levels of management to find someone who can
>make a decision. keep it calm and try to be friendly as you climb the
ladder.
>it took us several attempts to find a solution at the san remo but by
>keeping calm and working with managment we now have a solution that
>works.
>2nd sometimes for some reason people in charge will dig thier heels
>in. in this case all we can do if vote with our bucks. spread the
word that the place does not want our business.
>anyway i am still waiting to hear the response from the belaggio and i
>hope somebody made contact with management at the TI
Thanks, Mindy.
Comments, ladies? (gentlemen?)
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