From: Annie (annie@geekbabe.com)
Date: Wed Jul 17 2002 - 07:33:17 CDT
In this mailing:
Org List
Going twice
Brunch and bars
Leah writes
Brunch
Bar Types
Ladylike Feedback
Socializing
Administrivia
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Org List:
This is the DLV 2003 Organizational Mailing List (dlvorg@geekbabe.com)
Replies to this message will be forwarded to the DLVORG list and not
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Going twice:
Telephone and snailmail support. If we don't have a volunteer shortly,
I'm gonna post in the FAQ that these options are not available, and that
e-mail in one form or another is the only option we offer for DLV 2003.
For those who missed the conversation, we currently do not have anybody
to answer questions, take registrations, etc. by voice telephone or by
postal mail. If anybody would like to volunteer to do this, please say
so.
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Brunch and bars:
Laura writes:
>1. I think of brunch as being 10 or 11 a.m. I think a morning get
>together for a meal will appeal to those who don't stay out late and I
>gather there were a good number besides myself who did this at DLV
>2002. It would also help with the calls for more socializing.
>2. on the subject of casino bars, our group at IP, (5 TGs dressed and 1
>gg) gathered nightly around 5 p.m. at the bar at the front of the
>hotel (not the bar on the strip but the one at the front of the main
>part of the hotel) beside the casino and adjacent to reception. It was
>happy hour. There was entertainment, but fairly quiet. We had no
>problems at all. We had to go through the casino to get there. We also
>gathered as a group of about 10 in a bar at MGM, mid-casino, after La
>Femme and at a bar at Mandalay Bay for drinks before the tea at Four
>Seasons. Again, not problems. However, perhaps our group was just
>oblivious to looks and stares or care so little about this that none
>of us considered it an issue.
>Perhaps a get together at 5 p.m. or 6 p.m. at a different casino bar at
>the T-accepting places each day would satisfy some of the socializing
>time requirements.
>Newcomers to DLV might find such an activity nerve-wracking -- casino
>marches and high visibility bars -- but with many in the DLV crowd
>experienced and repeaters from previous years, some might enjoy popping
>into new places nightly for pre-dinner drinks and socializing.
We have a number of comments and suggestions in this mailing regarding
this activity. Suggestions run the gamut from our own private cash bar
area to a recurring get-together at a time known to be quiet at a more
or less centrally located t-friendly lounge. We don't have to make any
hard decisions now, but let's continue to discuss this topic and keep
the timing of it in mind as we fill out the schedule.
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Leah writes:
>I like Laura's article, it's very well written and fun, only thing that
>sorta got to me a little bit was the use of the word "trannie" several
>times. But, maybe that's my own issue and not shared by anyone else.
>Hope the article makes those publications.....it's very well done.
>Thanks Laura!
Yes, I think it will be a major asset to us, assuming it will be
published, which it most likely will be.
As for terminology ...
We're probably not going to have anything approaching a standardized
lexicon or jargon in the community for ages to come. If I were writing
that, I'm sure I would have used different terms, which would make some
number of people cringe. It's been that way as long as I remember it.
I looked the article over closely and didn't find anything I would
consider obviously incorrect.
. . . . .
>I don't know what else can be done about the bar scene and socializing
>at the clubs. Yes, it is harder to just barge in on a conversation but
>in the spirit of DLV I really don't think anyone would mind.
I agree. I think what started this thread was a totally isolated
incident which is a rare exception for DLV. I know the crowd mixed well
at just about everything, and I kept an eye open for people who did not
appear to be having a good time and I didn't see any.
As Big Sisters (and I think all of us on this list should consider
ourselves as such, even though we may not have designated Little Sisters
to assist) we should continue to encourage our people to mix and
circulate, and to watch out for those sitting alone, those stuck in a
car outside an activity, those who need to be introduced to others, etc.
Most of our people are outgoing, but there will be some who may need a
bit of a push to get started.
. . . . .
>I have one option and I will be willing to coordinate it if it is
>adopted and that would be to charge everyone $3-5 when they pick up
>their nametags ( I would be there....not trying to put the collection
>on anyone else....<g>) which will go to reserving a private room for an
>hour or two cash bar say, at the Sahara, maybe for 2 or 3 nights.
>I am not worried about the loss factor which should be small if at all
>as I assume most of the girls will be able to chip in a few dollars.
>Times would roughly be 4:30 - 6:30 pm. It accomplishes two things....
>gives the girls a private atmosphere to mingle and also gets a alot of
>them in one place for transport. Might even be able to do this in the
>pool area. All it would require is a bartender and a bar on wheels....
>not a big deal for the hotel. If it is popular enough then maybe in
>subsequent years we can get if for free.
>This of course opens up the fact that DLV is in the hotel but I don't
>think that will be a problem.
>Or maybe I could just try and arrange it without mention of DLV at all,
>just a group of girlfriends in town etc. If it is adopted I would need
>to know which avenue to pursue.
(As you would probably figure <g>) I have mixed feelings on this. I
would prefer that our activities not be sequestered from the public,
etc.
For most new things, we're not gonna know if they will work or not
unless we try them.
>Right now I only see maybe Weds and Thurs as viable with the most
>people in attendance as Friday I should be able to arrange cocktails at
>Carluccio's before dinner. By Saturday everybody should know most of
>the others anyway.
I think that a dinner at Carluccios, preceded by cocktails, is an
excellent idea, which would segue into an Annual Mixer type thing over
at Goodtimes. This is a good example of coordinating venues to reduce
the transportation issues.
>As for late breakfast or lunch everyday...... I mentioned previously
>that these not necessarily be part of the Official Schedule but just a
>designated place and time where the girls all know there might be a
>chance to dine with some of the others. I still think it's better to
>just desiginate a buffet or Coffee House rather than have someone
>coordinate each day.
True ... Now we need to get everybody to agree to a time and place. :)
>Maybe we can get Budweiser to be the Official Beer of DLV too? <g>
Seriously, around here, anyway, A-Busch markets to the GLBT audience,
with Miller and Heineken jumping on the bandwagon as well.
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Brunch:
>>>Maybe we should also schedule a central brunch location each day for
>>1 PM. Makeup definitely optional. I might make it to that at least
>Instead of only one central location, what say we just meet at the
>Coffee Shop at your own hotel at 11 am? That way anyone who wants to
>can enjoy breakfast or lunch, brunch, with whoever else shows up.
Comments, ladies? (Gentlemen?) This definitely avoids one transportation
issue.
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Bar Types:
Tina writes:
>>>Are you and Tina talking about the
>>>standup bars in the casino's or the enclosed sitdown bars like Terrace
[snip]
>>I was referring to what I think you mean when you talk of stand-up bars,
>>which have higher stools at the bar, as opposed to tables and chairs.
>And I was talking about finding a hotel/casino sit-down bar with tables
>and chairs for a designated social hour, preferably one that is at
>least semi-enclosed (more privacy is always better). When people say
>in the thread that such places are too loud, is that because
>entertainment is happening at the time? Is there one that is not part
>of a lounge act environment?
I know the Casbar (Sahara) has a band in the evening, but I think it's
open and quiet in the late afternoon.
>I don't know the places you mentioned. I know that the semi-circular
>sit-down bar by the Riviera box office (I think this is called the Le
>Bistro Bar and Show Lounge) is open for some period of time prior to
>their nightly entertainment in there. I've stopped in for a drink in
>girl mode when the place was nearly empty because the band didn't start
for an hour yet.
They tell me (the ubiquitous "they") that the Riviera has closed one of
its casino-area bars to make a small showroom for yet another show. I
dunno if this the the bar they are talking about.
>Another enclosed bar is the one at the Las Vegas Hilton right by the
>showroom. I believe it's called by the generic name of The Nightclub.
>Again, it has evening lounge entertainment.
Hmmm ... I can't say I even remember this one. Guess I haven't been to
the Hilton that much, even though I did stay there once last year.
>I saw Kristine W there a few times.
And if she's the one I'm thinking of, she could turn Elton John
straight! :) :) :)
>It then has dancing later in the evening, so it's a very
>hetero place late night, but relatively uncrowded before the
>entertainment starts.
>Since we don't have one designated hotel, any "Happy Hour" at a hotel
>will involve driving for most. Personally, I like the idea (was that
>Leah's idea?) of having it at the same place every day. Less
>confusion. Might make sense to have a special one before a major
>show at the location of the show.
>Question: Is Happy Hour an alternative track to dinner or is it
>something that starts really, really early?
LOL ... If our schedule fills up the way it may, eating and breathing
may become alternate track items. :)
Seriously, we have to consider everything, including the earlier
afternoon activities, the requested downtime, the happy hour, dinner,
and the subsequent evening activities when setting the schedule.
It may be the case that there will be difficult choices for many people,
and those who, for example, want a few hours of downtime, may have to
skip happy hour or dinner. Those who linger at happy hour may find
themselves late for, or skipping dinner.
>Now for a different slant: Some people didn't like the late night loud
>music and t* dancers/strippers at the LV Lounge, but they don't have
>that in the late afternoon and very early evening. It's relatively
>quiet there. Would that be a good designated place for Happy Hour?
Hmmmm ... you may have a point there. It isn't in any hotel, but it's
only a 5 minute drive from the Sahara. It's also "safe" enough for those
who are new, and public enough as to not give the veterans a sense of
claustrophobia.
Question: Did LVL ever get their food operation going?
>(I'm purposefully avoiding suggesting Flex and Goodtimes for the Happy
>Hour location, since we now we'll be there for some major night events.)
True, plus those two are a bit farther away.
>LV Lounge is pretty centrally located (near IP and Sahara) and easy to
>get to with lots of parking at the Commercial Center.
I'm sure there is plenty of parking during the day. In the evening it
seems like that front lot was full more times than it had space.
>Thoughts?
If there indeed is a calling for a recurring happy hour at a fixed place
and time, I have to admit that I think the LV lounge is a strong
candidate. We've had suggestions of hotel lounges, and even a rented
room with a cash bar for this. Except for the convenience of those who
are staying at the hotel in which those two options would be held, I
can't see any advantage they have over the LV Lounge.
Since everything is optional, it only takes a few people to show up to
make it happen.
Laura indicated that the IP people had a regular happy hour type thing
daily. I also know we had irregular groups meeting at the {name} bar at
the Sahara very informally almost daily. Seems to me this shows a demand
for it. If we can just steer the people to one common location, I think
we can have a successful recurring activity which provides the valued
social time.
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Ladylike Feedback:
>Good article. Might want to drop the reference to locals that don't
>use the registration process and just show up, but keep the surrounding
>sentence that emphasizes that registration is free.
Good point, Tina. We do want to encourage people to follow the
registration procedure (yeah yeah, creeping formality, I know) this
coming year.
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Socializing:
Michelle (NZ) writes:
>Hi,
G'day :)
>I'm reading with some concern the comments about the need for more
>socialising and perhaps, where its leading.
>Before I start, so no-one gets the wrong idea, I'm as much in favour of
>chatting with friends as anyone and many of the highlights of both this
>years and last years DLV relate to sitting and talking in some
>situation or another.
>My concerns though come from the comments that are now defining the
>type of locations and activities and to me this seems like that as a
>group we are saying we want socialise with each other because then we
>can choose a less conspicuous place to do it and hide away from the
>general public.
>In my opinion, as humble as it is, the move to encourage meeting for
>cocktails or lunch or other activities are a better approach than
>everyone crowding into a bar. Smaller groups, in my opinion, allow the
>whole group to interact together. For example the limousine tour was
>basically five groups of six rather than one of 30 or 29 or whatever.
>>>Is it wise to plan events in such open and visible spaces?
>>>What about restrooms?
>It does concern me when these types of questions are asked. I believe,
>the answers are obvious, that any group of transgendered people,
>especially those who contain cross dressers of varying skills,
>experience, shapes and attire go out in the real world.
>Some people (the straight non TG ones) will notice. A good portion
>won't and of those that do only a few will take more than a glance.
>Some might stare and one or two might stop and take a photo. Rarely
>will their a confrontation unless there is some other extenuating
>factors. Drunkedness maybe one but I didn't see that many roaring
>drunks in the casinos...I kind of doubt they'd be welcome?
Drunks, particularly obnoxious ones, are promptly ejected. This was
observed by me in 1997 at the Stardust and by Jackie in 2001 at the
Sahara.
>It also seems to me that many of the proposals (as much as they can be
>called) relate to a meeting point for causal drinks rather than
>activities in their own right. One maybe two hours or a little longer
>for lunch. If restrooms are an issue surely 1 or 2 hours can be
>managed?
>Now, it may be that many of the casual drinkies and luncheons maybe an
>activity for the more experience DLVer but we discussed this earlier
>that there probably needs to be two streams, mixing where appropriate,
>that allow the more experienced attendee to do more "out" things.
>>>Let me be blunt here. There are some Diva girls who can go anywhere and
>>>do fine. But there are most of the others who can't, and if they tried
>>>they would be scared silly or get in trouble. Do you want to be planning
>>>events and have only those few show up, or do you want to plan things
>>>everyone can go to?
>I guess I speak from being being someone who is passable and when in
>Las Vegas, lives pretty much fulltime as women. I know that many don't
>but what I did see this year was many, many more of the girls out and
>about and talking about it as well. I see this happening more and more
>as we go forward and in fact one of the only ways to deal with having
>to find places big enough to hold us all at one time.
>As I recall from many years ago the bar in the Riveria near the front
>right corner was a great meeting place. Around 5:00pm it had a band
>that played "nice" reasonably volumed music! and the service was OK.
>They had booths, tables (that could be moved) and stacks of chairs. Big
>and small groups would work OK. Never used the one in the Sahara but it
>doesn't seem to me that it is that much different from when 68 of us
>stand around outside a show venue before going in! As a group we
>definitely WILL attract attention.
>>>The bad side is what happens if you are the only one there?
>Depends on a lot of things I guess but I have gone and eaten at that
>Italian place thatıs right in the middle of the three walkways in
>Ceasar Palace shopping mall. I sat outside both times and apart from
>the curious looks was never bothered. Actually the only thing that ever
>really bothered me was being called "SIR" by the waiter when he bought
>my (Femme) credit card back for a signature. Don't think the TIP was
>that big that day!!!
>I guess to be successful the organiser needs to be prepared to show up
>and sit down by herself or gather a group of supporters and go in in
>mass to create a "quorum", so to speak!
>I do think that their is a need to do more "real world" things, not
>necessarily more than what we've done in 2002. I remember one girl
>saying when she heard that I was going to be at N+I in femme that
>that's the sort of thing she'd like to do. Real world...as a woman.
>Lunch at Paris on the outdoor veranda thingie, might me potential
>disaster from a sun burn perspective but great as something a group of
>women would do. Drink some wine, bitch about is price and the service
>the waiters tight bum, have some food, bitch about how fat they are,
>the diet they're on, and how thin the waitresses are and have some
>coffee, bitch about their partners.... I think you get the idea!!! :-)
>>>>Even though those casino bars are known to us to be reasonably safe, I
>>>>think they are a bit too visible for some of the newer people, those
[bobbitt]
>>>I agree with this also. The visability, variablility of changing
>>>conditions by those that come and go that drink at the bar, would be on
>>>my mind, and I wouldn't be able to relax as much compared to going to
>>>Flex or Goodtimes
>Maybe, maybe not. If the place is of any quality, such as one of the
>more upmarket hotels then I'm sure that the security, bar and other
>staff won't let too much develop.
>With all due respect Goodtimes, Flex, Sasha's and so on are closets for
>us all to go and play in. They're secluded and protected from the real
>world to a large extent and they welcome us. I'm not knocking these
>locations as I liked them all and for what they were used for they were
>great. But...they aren't real world places that women would necessarily
>make their first choice for a social gathering. (at least not in New
>Zealand!! :-))
We've affirmed since day one (actually, day 2, since the issue never
came up in 1997) that it is not our purpose to provide "a safe place to
dress" and that people who attend must realize that we do not do so.
If it were our purpose to provide a closet, we wouldn't even be mucking
around with Flex and Goodtimes, we would rent a block of meeting rooms
and reserve a block of hotel rooms such that our people could travel
safely from their hotel room to the activities and back again.
I don't see our choice of such places as Flex and Goodtimes as closets,
but as optimal selections when considering many factors such as the
confidence level, the skill level, and the comfort of all of our people.
Yes, I've at times gone to Keys, Goodtimes, and Flex by choice at times
other than DLV, when I could have gone elsewhere and felt just as safe.
However, I doubt if I would become a nighly regular, or even a weekly
regular at any of those places if I were to relocate in LV. I also agree
with you that those are not the places that a group of het gg's would
use for a get-together.
>>>>Another factor is the layout of these bars. They are sit-at-the-bar
>>>>type places, mostly in one row. The one at the IP does have more
>>>>corners, but for the most part, conversation is possible only with
>>>>immediate neighbors.
>Yep, I agree to the extent that if we are going set up group cocktail
>meetings that we should at least choose something that will work for
>medium or larger group of girls.
>>>A small group after the La Femme show stopped at the casino bar to get
>>>drinks, and had stood and socialized in a group. I felt the eyes of
>>>people walking by as they read us but didn't say anything to us, some
[snip]
>Bottom line. Everyone in MGM knew that there was a bunch of TGers at La
>Femme and in the hotel that night. You would have had to be deaf, dumb
>and blind ("drunk" works here) not to have noticed. I remember standing
>just inside the entrance waiting for the limo tour to start noticing
>all the eyes on us. In that quantity in that sort of location I don't
>believe you will be anything other than conspicuous.
This is quite true. Whenever you have any sizeable group of t* people,
the group will be noticed. Really nothing we can do about it.
>Anyway the end of another two cents from the other side of the Pacific.
And with the current state of the economy, approaching $USD.05 :)
We've had a number of comments about this in this mailing, and what I'm
hearing boils down to some decisions on a few issues surrounding this.
I think it's agreed that we want some kind of a regular happy hour type
get-together as well as a regular brunch/lunch type thing. What we don't
appear to agree on are:
1. Consistency or variety? Do we want the happy hour and/or brunch to
occur in regular places or different ones?
2. Small group or large group focus? We had a proposal above to meet
for brunch in the various hotels, and we've also had proposals to have
one central location.
3. Mainstream or isolated. We have quite a variety here, from
suggestions of wide-open casino bars to rented private rooms. This of
course applies to a happy hour type thing. Brunch/lunch would in most
any set of circumstances be very out in the open.
4. Location and convenience. Obviously a location in a hotel would be
very convenient for those staying in that particular place, and not so
for those staying elsewhere. A central location such as LV Lounge would
be equally convenient (or equally inconvenient) for all.
Of the two (happy hour and brunch) I see brunch as being the more
variable, and being dependent on when people rise, get ready, and their
state of mind when they do rise. I see a time of 11:00am being optimal,
but not good for everybody. Some get up earlier, get ready quickly, eat
earlier, and will not be hungry then. Others rise about that time and
take 2-3 hours to get ready. Some will be ok showing up in boymode,
others won't.
For happy hour, I think it's safe to say that everybody will be up and
more or less ready by that time, even if they are just showing their
face for the first time around then.
Therefore, I think it might be best to consider smaller local groups for
the brunch thing and one or more central locations for a happy hour type
of thing.
I personally (think I) would prefer variety in locations for happy hour,
but I somehow get the feeling they would be better attended if at a
single location.
I'm not exactly jumping up and down at the idea of renting a private
room for the happy hour thing. I also agree that some of our people
would vote against a wide-open casino bar by simply not showing up.
Although it's not our job to provide safety, we need to consider our
peoples' comfort level. LVL may be a happy medium if we choose to have
one recurring location.
Do we consider two-tracking, having freshman-level Happy Hour 101 in a
rented room and graduate-level Happy Hour 506 at the Casbar? <semi grin>
Another approach might be to do various locations on various days,
casino bar one day, LVL the next, another the next, and see which ones
work and which ones do not.
Comments?
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