Subject: dlvorg Vacation, convention, meeting room, mailing list ...
From: Annie (annie)
Date: Wed Jul 11 2001 - 23:46:29 CDT
In this mailing:
This mailing
It has been demonstrated
Dates, wardrobe, etc.
Mailing list issues
Schedule, breakfast, decorum
Dressing down and daytime
Vacation, meeting room, shopping, etc.
Administrivia
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This mailing:
This mailing contains most everything that was received here as of
Monday afternoon. I'm sending this out mid-week due to the volume of
material that has come in, to avoid an overwhelmingly large issue this
week. There is much more in the queue, and that will come out in the
next mailing this weekend.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
It has been demonstrated:
Lots of the discussion over the past few weeks has been along the line
of the vacation/convention issue. Not surprisingly <vbfg> nobody has
come out in favor of making DLV a convention. So, upon reading the
comments below, I think we can say with 100% accuracy that DLV will
remain a "vacation not a convention" for the forseeable future.
It's almost the middle of July. In just over two weeks we would like to
be able to announce in the July-August update to the main list that we
have agreed upon a proposed set of dates for DLV 2002. As of now, the
only dates proposed have been Tuesday, April 30 thru Sunday, May 5.
There's some discussion on this in the mailing today. Let's continue
with any remaining date debate and be ready in about two weeks to make a
proposal to the general DLV audience.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Dates, wardrobe, etc.:
Sarah writes:
>>We want to have the proposed dates ready to present to the general
>>DLV audience by the end of this month. Tuesday, April 30 thru Sunday,
[snip]
>These dates are fine with me. Especially if it's a little cooler than a
>week later, this works better for me.
It won't be *that* much cooler, but every little bit helps. We've been
fortunate that it has been very hot only one year for DLV.
"But it's a dry heat." (Yeah, and so's a blast furnace!)
>I tend to "dew" a little more
>than the average, and it would be more likely for me to get out other
>than in the dark of nite when the sun won't make me melt like the wicked
>witch of the west. This is part of my "Daytime Blues" issue as well.
>I've been trying to make my wardrobe a little more casual and look
>forward to the examples offered.
>>I admit that the Liberace Museum will probably feel less threatening to
[chomp]
>I'd love to go. I've heard it's a good place to visit, and any activity
>that would have something going on that wouldn't make it easier to drink
>my liver into a pickeled state, or pack in all the extra empty calories,
>would be appreciated.
I've been to the Liberace Museum twice and loved it both times. It had
changed and expanded quite a bit since I first saw it. It's now in
multiple buildings (two sections in the strip mall back by the
restaurant). I'm sure it's changed again since we saw it in 1997.
This is a very easy one to coordinate, and could easily be done with a
trip to Goodtimes and LVFT. Let's keep this in mind when we start
filling in the schedule.
>I ended up getting to L.V. late for 2001 and made the dam tour and
>shopped with Annie, both daytime and I was boy-mode both times. For the
>new kids, this kind of opportunity can be valueable. It made my trip to
>the LVL that last night much more comfortable. It was my first trip out
>with others.
There is definitely a stigma against boymode at DLV. A number of people
have mentioned several times that they would rather not go to one of our
activities than to go in boymode. I applaud you for your comfort in
doing so. :)
>Having met others and talked about this part of my life in person to
>another cd, made the walk out of the hotel room, the drive to the lounge
>and the subsequent evening a real personal success.
>I guess what I'm saying is some daytime activites can have a real
>benefit for me. If there are others that have some of the same issues,
>maybe there needs to be at least a couple of opportunities to get
>together in the strong light of day. I can get out and sweat like a
>horse in boy-mode, but in girl-mode the higher temps of daytime are not
>my friend.
Again (grabbing whip and looking for a dead horse to beat),
overdressing, both outer and inner, adds to the discomfort of the
hot weather.
>>The topic has come up now for four years running. The only way we will
>>know for sure if something like this benefits DLV is to try it.
>Maybe {the meeting room} is an opportunity for new kids to get those
>pointers that are not easily exchanged once already dressed and out at
>the bar. However, how would this differ from a visit from a big sister?
I see the meeting room and the Big Sister program to be totally separate.
Informal makeup/hair critiques can really be done anywhere, the meeting
room being one option.
>Before you go this route, maybe a little background on how be big
>sisters have been used in the past would be in order. They seem to meet
>the need that the room is being offered for.
Our Big Sister program is very informal, loosely organized, but I've
seen it help greatly in a few cases. The calls for assistance are few
and far between, but I know Big Sisters have made a real difference. We
had a case of the jitters in leaving the room a few years ago. It took
all of a few words of reassurance and she was with the gang enjoying
DLV.
We had a request this year for a Big Sister, and our little sister got
more Big Sisters than she ever needed. All of us made sure she was ok,
settled in, and comfortable, and had a ride to everything. She kinda
took off on her own then. :)
Mark my word, this coming year or next, she's gonna be one of those
Big Sisters and help out the new girls.
We also had one request for a pre-DLV fashion critique. :) :)
I was the one who received the pictures, and I sent them on to one of
our other Big Sisters and a gg friend of mine. All of us did a
constructive critique without consulting each other, and the areas in
which we were in agreement, we passed on. You and I both know <vbfg> the
outcome of this was very successful. :)
These are a few areas in which our Big Sisters have helped, but I think
the most important thing is the fact that Big Sisters are there if
necessary.
>>For the record, I'm strongly in favor of keeping DLV an out-and-about
>>vacation (or rolling party, as Tina calls it), even if it means a lower
[chop]
>Yeah. I'm not ready for a convention and that's not what attracted me
>to DLV in the first place. It's freeform, budget friendly, and for me
>close enough to drive from the SLC area.
I like the term "budget friendly". The combination of the venue (Las
Vegas, lower prices subsidized by gaming) and the lack of a one price
fits all model makes DLV one of the most, if not the most affordable
of all t* events.
We've had people attend who are on shoestring budgets, college students,
people on public assistance, etc. I want to be sure we include those who
are not financially flush.
>By the way, we just had a small earthquake roll through. The gods must
>have just realized the Olympics are coming.
Olympics?
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Mailing list issues:
>OK I'm confused (aren't I always?). The email thingie is sooooo sloppy
>and confusing for discussion. I don't know who is saying what, when they
>are saying who munches what, etc. Context is all over the place jumping
>from one topic to the other without warning and back again.
>Ooofah!!!! Sorry, I just doesn't seem to have much flow other than to
>pick something someone said and comment on it hoping that you aren't
>opening mouth inserting foot not realizing that it has already been
>answered or what not.
>Is it possible to have a secret newsgroup that the thread is easily
>followed? One which will work with most newsgroup clients? I think it
>would be easier to follow and issues would be resolved more efficiantly
>with inout from everyone.
If you mean a Usenet type newsgroup, yes, the (computer) club does have
a news server which I could easily use for a private group. However,
many of our people don't use a newsreader, and would not like to make
that hoop jump.
The standard methods for discussion lists like this are mail and web.
If the mail version doesn't display correctly in your mail reader (I
proofread these on both a gooey interface, Netscape Messenger, and a
text interface, elm) you might try the web version. It's at:
http://www.geekbabe.com/annie/org02arc/
The web version is done with Hypermail. There are some color options and
the like that have not been implemented (yet) but could be an option if
people want it. Likewise, if there is a demand to have this gated to a
newsgroup, it can happen.
If anybody else is having any difficulty accessing or reading these
mailings, please let me know.
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Schedule, breakfast, decorum:
Margeth writes:
>About april 30 to May 5th.... I see Networld/Interop as a driver in
>this as well as mother's day. I understand these drivers (even though I
>personally get on the web and send a gift on Mother's day) but must say
>that this might be a glitch in my schedule.
>I am trying, repeat trying frantically to get in as many courses
>toward my BS degree with my GI Bill (tuition and books paid by the
>government for service in the military). My time for this benefit runs
>out in 2003 and I have lost time already from my divorce etc.
>Needless to say, the end of the spring semester is the middle of May
>each year and generally the beginning of May marks the occurrance of
>finals....ever tried working eight to nine hours commuting 4 and going
>to school for 2.5 hours then studying for finals?
>All in all, I am not sure that this is a consideration since it only
>affects me, but thought I would say it none the less.
These are valid points. If there's any discussion on the dates of DLV
(tentatively April 30 - May 5), let's get it on the table now, please.
...
>On the topic of the meeting room, I know I have sanctioned this in the
>past, but the more I think about it, the more I tend to agree with
>annie on it.
>I believe that it might become a little bit like a closet. However, I
>would highly sanction, vote for, plead and pout for and otherwise like
>to see, a specific place in each hotel set up as a morning get-together
>for breakfast thing.
>As a matter of fact, I am going to assume I will be there
>(notwithstanding any difficulties with school) and say I think
>that the Teahouse at the IP should be such a place. I could arrange
>a reservation there for each morning as well.
Ok, keep this in mind as the date approaches. I would be interested in
something like this, assuming it doesn't happen *too* early in the
morning. I would even be willing to drive down to the IP, assuming I
am not staying there next year, and even bring a load of the others
as well.
>I believe that this would get those that are staying in the different
>hotels together in the morning to discuss the daily events and just
>things in general. This would also help some of the new girls become
>more comfortable with dress-down attire and it would promote
>friendships etc. Nothing like a good ole' egg breakfast to stir up
>conversations and get the day going right.
...
>As for registration, I think that the online form is great but
>understand the concern for not having a fee etc. I think the email
>lists add to the confusion of what the call for money is all about. And
>yes, if it were to become a convention, I could be counted out.
>(although I would probably be in Vegas around that time anyhow just to
>see some friends).
>My guage for this will be, if I see or here of a
>speaker discussing the topic of dress, attire, make-up or even T issues
>I'll be done for.
I don't see this happening at all.
I'm gonna speak very freely here. Also please excuse my verbosity, this
may be long.
I'm also gonna name some names in the third person, something I do not
normally do in a forum such as this. Again, please excuse me.
Those of us who value DLV for its informality and real-world atmosphere
are not gonna let this happen. The plank owners and longtimers have very
consistently and repeatedly stated that they do not want DLV to morph
into another t* convention, period, Q.E.D.
Whether you call it a "vacation, not a convention" as I do, or a
"rolling party" as Tina does, the fact is that DLV is not a mainline t*
convention, and there is significant inertia to prevent it from becoming
one.
I think one of the reasons some people want to see DLV more like the
mainline t* conventions is that is what they are familiar with and that
is what they might be more comfortable with. One person remarked to me
this past May that before DLV, she could not have possibly perceived of
any t* gathering without the requisite electrolysis lecture, talent
show, Rubber Chicken Banquet<tm>, pageant, etc. Surprise! It exists,
and it's quite successful.
The observation that DLV may be headed down the slippery slope of
becoming Yet Another t* convention seems to have come from two items:
1. Suggestion of a paid reservation.
2. Suggestion of a meeting room.
As for a paid registration, Michelle suggested that primarily as a means
of minimizing dropouts. Michelle is a longtimer who I don't see as
wanting DLV to be a convention. Michelle and I have discussed this and
other things on line. She's been to a few t* conventions back in her
younger days, and I know she appreciates the difference between them and
DLV.
Personally, I see dropouts as a lesser evil, compared to a paid
registration. I see a paid registration lowering our turnout for
several reasons, one being the additional hoop-jump.
Michelle was the one who drew up our first draft schedule. Notice
that nothing on there smells like a tranny convention. :)
As for a meeting room, I still don't know. I still wonder what in the
heck I would ever use a thing for (do a demo of making boob goo maybe)
but this has been an ongoing discussion almost every year, and I figure
it's not gonna go away until we try it.
The person who volunteered to run it this next year, CAT, appears to
definitely be in the "rolling party" faction of DLV. I don't see this
room being used to hold a mini Fanfair while the rest of us are out on
the town.
Yes, I share the concern of such a room being used as a path of least
resistance halfway closet. I don't see this as CAT's intent at all.
One suggestion I might make is to not make the room available during the
featured DLV activities. (This may be self-regulating, since there will
have to be a house mother for it, and the house mother will more than
likely be at most of the big activities.) The one(s) hostessing it will
have to set the rules for it.
I'm gonna scream very loudly, however, if anybody makes any serious
suggestion that we move any of our typical activites to that room from
the on-the-town locations.
Enough ranting on that for now. :)
...
>Another topic not previously brought up, but worthy of bringing up,
>voluntary organizers and decorum. Not to be a sassy little bi*ch but I
>believe we do need to discuss with organizers of events how to announce
>their party, group or whatever.
>One glaring thing comes to mind. "DLV Crossdressing Party" should
>never be heard over a PA system or even in a loud voice across a room.
I'm assuming you are referring to the way the group was noted on the
roster at the golf course. I wasn't there, but I think I would have had
a total cow if the group had been paged using that line. :)
When I've made reservations for DLV, I've either used my surname or
just the initials DLV, such as I did for the show this year, as it's
easily recognized by our people, and not obvious to others.
>One, we not only have new girls who are just trying to blend in and
>go un-noticed, but we also have TS's that are trying to blend in and
>go un-noticed.
I agree. IMAO, the less attention we get (individually or collectively)
from the general public, the better.
>Anyone who wants this kind of attention should have it
>announced exclusively for them. "Sally, crossdressing party of one,
>please!"
>Volunteers should be cognizant of this and respect the anonymity of the
>others. Besides, the poor guys and girls in the SO, admirer or
>male-mode category !!!!!! Hey! It isn't Pride Day in the Desert!
>Anyhow, enough of my ramblings. time for some good ole coffee and
>relaxation.
Yes, and I should stop writing this and get some Real Work<tm> done. :)
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Dressing down and daytime:
>>>I think many of the girls are hung up on the notion that they can't feel
>>>feminine without getting all dolled up. I think they try it and they
>I admit this used to be me all the way. I've toned down a LOT, but still
>feel more feminine whn I get all frilly and girly. It's a learning
>curve you've got to climb. I'm climbing!
>Now, let me tell you this story. You know I've been looking at real
>girls and how they dress for some examples. Well, just before the 4th.,
>this friend of my daughter's came over, she's all of 14 and starting to
>fill out, if you know what I mean. She was wearing this cute little
>tank top with the words "Hot Item" in glitter across the front.
>Well,
>I thought that was really cute and for a minute I thought of asking
>her where she got it and getting one for myself. Then I thought some
>more and realized that on a 14yo it does look real cute, but on me,
>40yo plus, and size 1X, it would look rediculous! I'm slowly realizing
>I've got to dress my age in order to pull this off with any degree of
>class.
This is a very good example of how you've grown and can now realize that
what works on those who are under 30 and under 130 is not gonna work for
the vast majority of us. Most of us would love to be 20 years younger
and 20 lbs lighter, but wearing something meant for a teenager (or
worse, something that's 2 sizes too small) is not gonna make it happen.
>>>You figure, everyone stays out well past midnight, and most everyone
>>>drinks. They're going to wake up about noon or so, not feeling the
[cut-paste]
>>>Then you figure it takes most everyone 2 to 3 hours just to get ready.
>This is me all the way. When I'm on vacation, and I do like very much the
>concept of a vacation instead of a convention, there's no way I can get
>up before noon, let alone get made up and dressed before noon. The only
>day event I was planning on was Saturday, but I woke up about 11:00 and
>there's no way I could be dressed and made up by noon.
I think this point is well made over the past few weeks.
>Now I think back, I'm sorry I missed the shopping trip on Thursday. I
>didn't know what I would be looking for at the time, but now I've
>been getting more of a style and I wish I would have taken the time
>even if I didn't buy anything. I certainly hope you repeat this next
>time.
I'm sure there will be at least one shopping thing, mall crawl, or
something similar at DLV 2002. I don't have a clue when it will be on
the schedule, bit most likely some afternoon. Be sure to keep this in
mind when we start plugging activities into the calendar slots.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Vacation, meeting room, shopping, etc.:
CAT writes:
>>Some of the stuff in this last mailing was disturbing to me. I can see
>>DLV moving away from being the great vacation between friends that it
>>has been and toward becoming another tranny convention..."
>For a first time DLV participant who is very involved in the largest TG
>convention, I was extremely happy that I found DLV to be completely as
>advertised by Annie's emails and the web site.
>I doubt if the people who were at the past DLV would ever want it to
>become a convention...I know I certainly would not! However, I do not
>believe that it will remain just a vacation between a small group of
>friends unless you stop promoting it and inviting people to attend.
>It does not seem to me that you can have it both ways. I would think
>that is something the founders have to decide. If more people attend,
>it would seem to me that Annie would need to have something of a count
>up front to let certain establishments be prepared for 30+ people.
>And if people had as much fun as I did, they are going to bring more
>people the next time. Therefore, a registration of some sort seems to
>me to be a necessity. BUT - not a paid one! I think the references in
>the discussions about paid registration was simply a response to one of
>Annie's questions on why there were so many no-shows.
I don't see it shrinking. It's gonna grow each year, most likely, but
not at the explosive rate we saw in 1998-1999.
I would like to think of DLV as a vacation of friends, with that circle
of friends expanding each year. I know I've made new friends each and
every year I've attended DLV.
>I have probably come the closest of anyone to promoting any type of
>dollars involved and that is ONLY if there is sufficient interest in
>DONATING for some type of room. My only reason for even suggesting that
>was there was so many talking about it. And, you cannot find out what
>people want if you never throw an idea out on the floor.
Let's make a note to the general DLV list for the July-August summary
asking for comments about this. We'll ask the people if they thing such
a room would be of use, and if they would be willing to donate.
Final decision doesn't have to be now by any means, we can repeat the
call for comments say in January, but it might be nice to know if people
will make use of it or not.
>>I take this to mean you are not volunteering to be a general Bux Babe
>>for DLV 2001. Please correct me if I am wrong.
>YOU ARE CORRECT IN YOUR ASSUMPTION.
Emphasis noted. :)
>>I do have some significant concerns about this, some of which are
>>shared by other founders and long-term participants.
>My main thought on a room was for it to be a place where some could get
>help if they wanted it on makeup, hair, dress, etc with set times only,
>so as not to be used as a "hiding out" room. This was not intended to
>be a push for a "staging area".
>If I were to handle the securing of that type room, the cut off would
>have to be at least one month ahead. That would mean all dollars in.
>And, there would be no refunds if someone did not show up.
>After reading all the comments from the last update, I certainly do not
>want to do anything that might contribute to this becoming a convention.
>And I definitely am not taking away from my time to do what I want on
>my time. So, I will withdraw the suggestion for a "hospitality" room.
>After the schedule of events is decided upon, if there is a weak time
>slot one day, then maybe I will just offer for one of my rooms to be
>used free of charge to all. We will just see how it works out.
>Final Thought:
>It does seem to me that the founders and long-term participants have to
>make a decision on what DLV is going to be. For this to remain a
>vacation that good friends enjoy with the same closeness as appears to
>have been in the past, it would appear that the number of participants
>would have to remain relatively the size of this past year.
It appears to me that those on this list, at least those who are vocal,
are in agreement that DLV is valuable as the singularity it is. I can
see it growing in number within reason and remaining close and informal.
>The more numbers involved, the more diverse the opinions are, with a
>probable moving away from the original founders concept. I have been
>extremely impressed with how DLV is handled and the people involved. I
>do believe that the name evokes images of glamour and glitz, which quite
>frankly is what drew me and some others at first.
True, that when the number of people increases, the diversity will also
increase. I want to be sure that DLV continues to appeal to those across
the very broad t* spectrum, from those taking their first peek out of
the closet, to those who are post-op and fully transitioned. I don't
want to see us concentrate on any one faction of the t* community.
Likewise, I certainly don't want to see us exclude any factions of the
community.
>What we found were some great people, many different from us, but all
>enjoying each other's company. The night at Keys will stay in my memory
>for a long time..especially when the dance floor was full of every type
>person at DLV.
We are a very diverse group, but we do enjoy many of the same things. I
would like to see the "fun" things kept high on the priority list. Ditto
on the social things, which let people express themselves and get to
know one another. The evenings at Keys and Goodtimes can be enjoyed
by everybody who came to DLV.
For the DLV's in the years to come, we need a good mix of the proven
activities (shows, meals, social events, etc.), the popular but
limited/special interest activities (RHPS, shopping, touristy things,
etc.), and the new and different activities (boating, mainline clubs,
side trips, and whatever can be thought up and tried) to keep up
consistency and variety.
>I do believe that if the numbers continue to increase, you will find
>that more and more will be coming only for the night time activities. I
>also believe you will see more and more "groups" of friends enjoying
>each other, but not necessarily doing the same things as another "group"
>during the day.
We've had a lot of good feedback on what contributes to the nighttime
popularity with respect to the daytime. I think all reasons cited are
valid, and probably contribute to this phenomenon. We may have to go
forward expecting lower turnout for daytime activities.
>People within my circle of friends will probably never join in a planned
>shopping activity. But, that should be alright, and the ones who do
>enjoy that should do it. Neither group should chastise the other. I
>intend to be coming back for many years, and will encourage my friends
>to come, so they can experience the fun and friendship I did. But,
>don't expect us to go on a shopping trip, a tour of the dam, a climb
>around rocks, etc. It just is not us.
It's ironic <bfg> that I'm one of those who enjoys taking groups on
shopping trips at DLV. I recently received an invitation to a rolling
t-party, one stop of which will be here in Omaha. :)
One of the activities mentioned was shopping. Without even thinking of
this thread here, I almost immediately thought something along the line
of "naw, I'll skip that and meet them down at G's later".
I just think that's ironically amusing. :)
If I may digress, I think I've totally shopped out Omaha, but when I
travel, I always try to hit the malls elsewhere, even though most of
them have the same stores as Crossroads/Westroads/Southroads
(Oakroads?).
I'm sure others who have burned out on shopping in their local area
who love to go shopping when they travel. I know I could easily spend
days (and kilobucks) at Mall Of America. :)
>The days spent at DLV were absolutely fabulous! The concept of everyone
>doing what pleases them is fantastic. To me, it would be a shame to
>deprive the rest of our community of something that is unique and
>singular. I hope the people who had this great idea agree.
I think everybody is in agreement here. :)
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Diva Las Vegas 2002
May, 2002, dates to be announced
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