dlvorg Boardwalk transcripts ...

Subject: dlvorg Boardwalk transcripts ...
From: Annie (annie)
Date: Tue Jun 04 2002 - 07:42:47 CDT

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In this mailing:

Org List
Transition time
Transcript to Boardwalk
Administrivia
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Org List:

This is the DLV Organizational List (dlvorg@geekbabe.com) Replies to this
message will be forwarded to the DLV ORG list and not the main DLV list.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Transition time:

This mailing contains only one major item, the edited transcript of
everything I could find in all archives pertaining to the Boardwalk
situation. Before I send this out to Denise as requested, I want to
bounce it off of you for any further additions or editing.

First of all, is anything missing? I grepped the digest archives and
pulled in anything related. I removed the names as we discussed.

Second, is there anything that we should not be sending them? Please
don't be picky, but if I've missed anything that is obviously
confidential, please let me know.

Barring any objections, it goes out to Denise tomorrow.

Now, I know the list has been busy lately, but I do have some
housekeeping to do. I have to transition this over to the ORG03
internal structure and add the new volunteers. I'm planning to do
this tonite and tomorrow morning unless there's a compelling reason
to hold off further. A few items have come in since yesterday, and
those will be transferred over to the new list.

You will not have to do anything. You'll receive a test shakedown
message from the new list, a welcome message, and then the digests will
resume, most likely on Wednesday. Unless more come in, we will have 11
new volunteers with us at that time.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Transcript to Boardwalk:

@> My own comments are noted by the prefix @> in the left column.

@> This is a concatenation of all traffic on the main DLV list and the
@> DLV organizers' list regarding the restroom incident(s) at the
@> Boardwalk.

@> Most items are from converations on one of the lists. Items that
@> are prefixed with "+" are survey feedback comments.

@> Some items may appear to be duplicated if they are part of a
@> conversation or if they appeared on both lists.

@> If there are any questions or concerns, or if you need clarification
@> on anything, you can write to the DLV organizers as a whole at the
@> address dlvorg@geekbabe.com or me personally at annie@annie.net
.........................

>I attended the open house at Boardwalk and even went with {name10} to get
>my players card (you know how I enjoy to gamble). I found the staff
>there accommodating and the lounge staff was very professional.

>I did have one downside from boardwalk. I was begging to need a place
>to visit when I heard {name10} say that the staff (Boardwalk) would
>appreciate it if we used the upstairs restroom. I went upstairs and
>encountered no problems. My subsequent visit there was a cleaning lady
>in the area and she observed another girl and myself use the facility.

>As I was leaving two security guards inquired as to which restroom I
>had used. I informed them that I had used the ladies restroom. He then
>informed me that I was not to use that restroom. I informed them that
>we were requested to use the upstairs restroom. One of them radioed
>security and was informed that they had no knowledge of this
>arrangement. I went back to the lounge (were I had already spent money
>on several drinks) and informed some of the other girls that were
>there about what had transpired.

>Incidentally, there were two other girls with me who were likewise
>informed by the two security guards that they also should refrain from
>using the ladies restroom. Not wishing any further confrontation, I
>left Boardwalk and went elsewhere. One incident shouldn't damper an
>establishment, but I have torn up their players card and I will in all
>likelihood not return there. I hope this clarifies what transpired at
>the Boardwalk.
.........................

Boardwalk comments:

>I was also one that experienced problems with security at the
>Boardwalk, and may have talked to you about it.

>I did talk to {name10} and know about the miscommunications. I can also
>understand the viewpoint of security, as far as the possiblility of a
>GG complaining about CDers in the womens bathroom, and the desire to
>prevent it or any kind of confrontation with other guests or staff. BUT
>I can see our viewpoint also.

>If they based what happend to me on just {name1} and I in there, I will
>say that {name1} was very passable that night, and I didn't think I was
>*that* readable in a business suit... maybe it was me that the guards
>read.

>BUT these are 'security' guards that SHOULD know how to communicate
>with continuing shifts on ongoing matters and our group staying
>there.... but yeah I know, mistakes happen.

>From my perspective, this is what occured.

>I didn't attend the Boardwalk Open House reception, therefore I didn't
>know about the restrictive 2nd floor bathroom requirement, nor of the
>earlier incident.

>I arrived at the Boardwalk to immediately go to the MGM La Femme show
>({name3} gave me a ride, and I was almost late). {name5} {name15}, my driver,
>who parked at the Boardwalk, wasn't going to go to the show, and stayed
>for the reception. She later joined us for the Limo tour at the MGM.

>After the show, the Limo tour followed, and at the end of the Limo
>tour, I returned with {name5} to the Boardwalk, along with {name1},
>{name11}, and {name12} in a limo. On the way to the Boardwalk, we were
>discussing the possiblity of going somewhere to eat. {name12} wasn't
>feeling well, and both her and {name11} sat on a bench outside the
>casino. Everyone else was gone! {name1} went to go check if the cafeteria
>in the casino was open.

>{name5} and I followed {name1} (who was ahead of us). {name5} needed to go
>to the Ladies room, and said she'll go use the 2nd floor room, and I
>said I would follow {name1}. {name1} and I walked further and found the
>cafeteria closed. I also saw {name13} and another DLVer (cant remember her
>name right now) gambling and enjoying themselves in the casino and they
>saw me and gave glancing eye recognition. {name1} decided to go to the
>ladies room. I was going to wait for {name5}, but decided to also go to
>the ladies room, and was about 30 sec behind {name1}.

>Both of us entered the 1st floor casino ladies room. No one was at the
>door, and when I entered, I remembered being glad the restroom was
>empty (no gg walking around), but then I saw that there was a cleaning
>lady cleaning the stalls. I took one stall that was just cleaned (she
>was cleaning several at one time), and was quiet and lady like in my
>mannerism, as best as possible, sat down and did my business. I came
>out of the stall, and {name1} and I exchanged glances at the mirror as she
>was going out of the room. I followed a few seconds later.

>{name1} waited at some slot machines located near the restrooms, with her
>back facing the restrooms. I joined her and talked with her as far as
>where we wanted to go eat. I was standing and facing the restrooms
>while I talked to her. As I was talking to her, a security guard walk
>and stood near the entrance to the restrooms.

>{name5} joined us, and a few minutes later {name8} and {name14} joined us,
>and both {name8} and {name14} went to the same casino restroom. {name1},
>{name5}, and I continued to discuss where to eat, and a few minutes
>later a second security guard arrived, talked on the radio, and started
>talking to the the 1st guard. He then pointed towards us as he talked
>to the second guard. The second guard nodded his head up and down as in
>agreeing to something. I then pointed this out to both {name5} and {name1}.

>We were wondering if {name11} and {name12} would join us in going
>somewhere to eat, so I volunteered to check and began to walk back out
>of the casino to where I saw them last. As I past the security desk,
>all of the guards at the desk was staring or looking intently at me,
>some nodding their heads slightly. When I reached the casino door,
>there was another guard at the door, who looked at me, talked on the
>radio and walked away back into the casion (don't know if this was
>related).

>I checked the bench that {name11} and {name12} was on, and both of them
>were gone, so I turned around and went back in, and again, noticed the
>security guards at their desk intently watching me. By the time I
>returned to the group, {name8} and {name14} was out of the restrooms and
>was discussing with {name1} and {name5} where to go eat. As were were
>discussing, the cleaning lady was now having a conversation to the two
>guards, and she was smiling or embarassed, looking and pointing at us,
>and the guards were listening and also looking at us as the cleaning
>lady looked in our direction.

>At this point I pointed this out the rest of the group.

>The group decided to go to the Sahara to eat. We then split up, each
>to meet at the Sahara, {name1} with her car, {name8} and {name14} with their
>car, and {name5} and I with our car.

>As we walked past the casino and to the door, I guess I was now more
>aware of the guards, and I noticed several of them standing/posted and
>watching us at various stations along the way to the door of the casino.
>Also again, as we passed the security desk, they were definitely
>watching us. {name5} even noticed this when I talked to her about it.

>{name5} and I left the casino, and walked to the parking structure to go
>to our car. As we walked up the ramp to the second level, a guard on a
>golf cart drove close past us, slowed down a bit and was looking at us,
>and talked on the radio. I recognized him as one of the guards that
>was watching us near the security desk, just a few minutes earlier.

>This could be unrelated, but this guard, went up to the second level
>ahead of us, and kept driving around and around, keeping an eye on us
>between the parked cars, (I could see him doing this) as we walked to
>the car, as he went round and around. I constantly could hear the golf
>cart going around as we got to our car. We then drove out. I'm not
>sure if the guard followed our car to the exit.

>I know this matter was cleared by {name10}, as a mis-communication, and
>the apoglizes were made by the admin staff of the casino.

>Nothing was spoken to me by any security guard. Nor was I stopped by
>them.

>But it still leaves with me a feeling of harassment, and it will affect
>me in wanting to go to the Boardwalk.

>For those DLVers that stayed there, they told me that the staff went
>out of the way to make them feel welcomed. Its very inconsistant to
>what I had experienced. I'm glad for them that they had a good time
>there.

>BUT I will keep an open mind and not judge Boardwalk as good or bad, or
>if DLV continues to use this venue. I sincerely hope that this was an
>isolated incident, one to be forgiven and forgotten. I will not hold
>this against them if DLV has events there, but I will be very sensitive
>to it for some time.
.........................

>>At the Boardwalk, things are unclear to me, I've heard several versions,
>>but have not talked to the person involved yet. I was told that one of
[bobbitt]

>Well, on Thursday night after LaFemme, 3 of us ({name4}, {name17} and I)
>were arriving at Boardwalk and we met another DLV girl coming out. I
>had to go, so I left the other 2 to talk with the DLV girl while I
>asked a bellman where the restrooms were. I followed his directions to
>the 1st floor restrooms on the far side of the casino, where I used the
>ladies room without incident. When I came out, I walked around for
>awhile looking for my friends ({name4} and {name17}). I did see a security
>guard trailing along after me for a few minutes talking on his radio.
>I didn't think anything of it at the time. I didn't even notice him
>until after I had done at least one circuit of the 1st floor casino
>area (it's not that big). Don't know when he started walking behind
>me, but he didn't hang around long. Didn't seem threatening or
>anything.

>Anyway, after I located {name4} and {name17}, I heard the story about how the
>other DLV girl had been told not to use the ladies room. That was the
>conversation they had held upon our arrival while I had rushed off to
>the ladies room. So at some point relatively soon after this DLV girl
>had been told not to use the ladies rooms at Boardwalk, I went and used
>the ladies room.

>Now, that's the 1st thing that makes me mad. That someone dressed as a
>woman who is not causing a problem is denied use of the women's
>restroom. I know this DLV girl casually and I have a hard time
>believing that she would do anything to create a commotion. And I
>always follow Ann Landers advice: use the restroom of the gender you
>are dressed as.

>Now we come to the 2nd thing that makes me mad. This DLV girl (as I
>have heard the story second hand from {name4} and {name17}) had been told (by
>whom I am not clear) that arrangements had been made with Boardwalk
>management to encourage DLV girls to use the 2nd floor ladies room. As
>I understand the situation, this DLV girl was denied access to this 2nd
>floor ladies room. If these are indeed the facts, and I would strongly
>encourage a discussion of them here online including any type of
>response that Boardwalk management would care to give, let me try to
>explain why I am angry, beyond the basic fact that DLV people were
>denied use of restroom facilities.

>It is the fact that we were apparently to be segregated to the use of a
>particular restroom that disturbs me. Yes, I personally choose to
>often use out of the way ladies rooms when convenient, but that is my
>personal choice to avoid my personal embarassment. If I am in my own
>hotel, I will simply ride the elevator to my room and use the restroom
>there to ensure my own privacy. Again, my personal choice. But, when
>I have to go, and time is of the essence, then I will use the ladies
>room that is closest. I'm not interested in causing a fuss and I
>don't make a scene, but I do go. And I by God will not set foot into
>any establishment that wants to restrict me in that regard.

>Now, before I climb any higher on my soapbox, I would like to invite
>anyone formally associated with the Boardwalk to address the issue of
>where this 2nd floor restroom "suggestion" came from and what form it
>originally took. I certainly never saw anything about it online before
>DLV started, and I would like to understand more of the history behind
>it.

>Obviously, some folks had problems at Boardwalk this year. It doesn't
>take much to kill a place's reputation with DLV girls when it comes to
>restroom issues. Perhaps other DLV girls had positive experiences at
>Boardwalk that they might care to report online here.

Personally I had no problems at the Boardwalk, although I was in there
for maybe 45 minutes total. I spent most of my time in the bar/show
area. I found the bar staff to be friendly. I did use the restroom, the
one just to the east of the showroom. I wandered about, briefly to the
gift shop, and around the casino. I didn't get the feeling I was being
watched. (And I was dressed up for the show.)

I was told that there was a miscommunication in their security
department, and that possibly one officer had taken it upon himself to
give one of our people some extra attention.

If we are to enter into negotiations with the Boardwalk (or any
property) I would like to see restrooms be a non-issue, meaning we are
treated like every other group that uses the facility, I mean, I highly
doubt that a hotel's contract for the Steamfitters Union convention or
the Phi Zappa Krappa reunion stipulates which restrooms are to be used.
.........................

>Restrooms:

>>I'm taking a few liberties here, in steering some of the traffic over
>>here to the org list for our discussion before some items are (may be)
[...]
>>In particular I've moved the restroom comments and all organizational

>No problem for the the short run. But, I do hope that you'll soon
>print my original comments on the full list. I think its important
>that all DLV girls be aware of these issues from a political
>standpoint in general and from an economic standpoint since their
>dollars flowed into the Boardwalk and Sahara. Also, it's important
>that girls of varying degrees of experience understand how such
>incidents occur and what the range of possible responses to it are, in
>case it ever happens to them.

Yes, I agree that these issues should get out to all.

If it's ok with you I would like to wait until two things happen, one
just to hold off until the "glow" subsides just a bit over on the main
list, and two, we get some further feedback from {name10} regarding what
happened and what action has been taken, and will be taken, and just
what exactly was the story regarding what they think which restroom
is to be used.

In particular, I would like to know what the official stance of the
management of Boardwalk is. I'm a bit confused. Was the request to use
the upstairs restroom an option, a suggestion, a strong suggestion, or
was it to be a requirement?
.........................

>boardwalk reception: this was the biggest problem and resulted from a
>missunderstanding with the head of security.. i have had a talk with him
>about this and such a problem will not happen in the future.

>still under discussion is use of all fem restrooms or pre announcing
>with one will be reserved for out use. this is a matter of educating
>the boardwalk staff and may include discussions with the general
>manager. given that no regular boardwalk clients made any complaints
>and they are now aware that sex crimes by tg's in mainstream public
>restrooms are virtualy unheard of i think this will be no problem.

If I had my say in this, I would insist that no conditions on the use of
the facility be stated. If a particular out-of-the-way restroom is to be
reserved, I would prefer that it be an option for our people who are a
bit shy of using one that is more public, and not a requirement.
.........................

@> Note in the org list about questions to be added to the survey.

>What about... "Did you have any Restroom issues during DLV?" Seems like
>theres a lot of rumours and comments flying but we should / copuld get
>a more formal count of issues???

Ok, that is easy to add.
.........................

@> Written comments from the participation survey.

+Had dinner in Boardwalk Cafe during Boarkwalk Reception with 6 other
+girls from DLV. Excellent food and prices. Only concern/incident was
+at Boardwalk where we met after Limo Tour. I didn't notice, but was
+told by another girl that we (five of us) were being followed by
+security person(s) at Boardwalk, both inside and outside while walking
+to parking garage. Would have a problem recommending that hotel to any
+DLV girls.
.........................

+Apparently drew some extra scrutiny from Boardwalk security after using
+the ladies room, shortly after another DLV girl was denied use of the
+ladies room.
.........................

>We should say that we regret that it happened at a recommended DLV
>hotel, that DLV policy is to not patronize places that don't allow us
>full use of their facilities, and that we'll work very hard next year
>(just as we have every year in the past) to make sure that we create a
>DLV that strives to minimize such problems to the maximum extent
>possible. Several people have said words to this effect on the org
>list, but none of this has yet been said to the girls on the general
>DLV list. I think we owe it to them to tell them that.
.........................

>The whole issue of the Boardwalk in 2002 has been a perplexing one. On
>the one hand, they employ a respected member of the DLV org group,
>which is how they got recommended to us in the first place. On the
>other hand, they were very difficult to work with in 2002:

> - slow to quote hard and fast room rates
> - weren't particularly competitive on room rates
> - totally mishandled restroom issues

>The first two issues had a major negative impact on the number of
>people who decided to stay there for DLV, and the 3rd problem caused
>many of us to bail out on gambling there ({name3} {name2}'s group, my
>little group, etc.).

>I know I'm very disappointed with how all this turned out because I had
>high hopes that we could build up a relationship with a small hotel
>where the size of our group and the amount of money we spend per capita
>(generally above average) would have some leverage in building a
>long-term working relationship. We only come to LV as a group once a
>year and, while we are growing, we don't seem to provide a high enough
>room count to particularly interest megahotels. Small ones might be
>more interested in DLV in particular.

>Relationships like this aren't measured just in terms of room rates,
>but also in terms of how t* friendly a place is and how respectfully
>they treat our girls, and in how much they want DLV's business in
>particular. (Big hotels can be very t* friendly, but might not care
>about DLV at all, for example.)

>Of course, as other threads in this last mailing showed (and all
>long-time DLV attendees know), you'll never get everybody at one hotel.

>Some have long-term player relations with certain hotels, others desire
>more upscale places. An issue that I expect will receive considerable
>discussion in the coming weeks is if it is even desirable to try to
>concentrate most people at one hotel.

>In years past, it appears that we weren't big enough to raise a blip on
>anybody's radar. Other than meeting for breakfast or to catch a ride,
>it hardly mattered where people stayed (IMHO). But, our numbers are
>growing steadily year-to-year, and the issue of where to stay becomes
>more important each year as we try to move more people around quickly
>to more activities on more nights.

>Particularly for newbies (seemed like we had more newbies than
>returnees this year),

Yes, both the registration data and survey returns indicate that
slightly over half of our people were first-timers.

>a lot of people want to stay at a recommended place. Just because we
>will be concentrating more t* girls in one spot, we will attract more
>attention from hotel staff, particularly people like security who are
>paid to notice things.

>Personally, as we've discussed many times in the newsletter over the
>years, I feel sure security sees me use the ladies room, but have never
>had a problem at DLV. That doesn't mean I won't have a problem
>tomorrow. More t* girls means more potential for problems.

>For 2003, we need to make sure we recommend a hotel where we can use
>any restroom at any time. How to accomplish that is a question that I
>don't have an answer for yet. I'm glad we have time to work on it this
>summer.

I've always said that when a restroom incident occurs, it's a result of
somebody "pushing it", meaning being too obvious doing so in a manner
that could have easily been not so obvious. From the incidents I've
known of over the year, they almost always involve a complaint from
another.
...

At the Boardwalk, however, I don't think anybody was pushing it. I see
a few very likely scenarios, including:

1. (Quoting {name2})

+>My subsequent visit there was a cleaning lady in the area and she
+>observed another girl and myself use the facility.

Quite possibly the cleaning person, who was unaware of what was agreed
upon, noticed multiple t-girls use the restroom and notified security,
who was also unaware, etc.

2. Security people took it upon themselves to act on what they saw to
be a minor violation of what is usual and customary.

3. Security people were enforcing what was a stated policy of the
property.

Most likely, I believe, is scenario 1.

I agree with {name18} that if we negotiate with one or more properties for
rates, conditions, etc., one make-or-break condition should be that
there are no restrictions on our use of any facilities. This, however,
is very much a two-way street. Our people do have to remember to be a
lady, go individually, be discreet, get in, do it, get out. Any mass
invasion of a ladies room or any in-your-face incidents which result in
complaints will surely result in our not being invited back under the
circumstances we want.
.........................

>>>Unless {name2}
>>>receives a written apology from Boardwalk management, I
>>>personally would strongly question their inclusion for DLV 2003.

>I think "Slim" just left town again, {name3}! :-)

(You won't let me forget that one, will ya? :)

I'm gonna (try to) get together with the other {name2} this coming week,
and I'm sure I'll hear more detail. I'm sure it was a major low point
on her trip. :(

>{name18}s excellent analysis of Restrooms hotels, radar blips etc...deleted
>but...

>In defence of a place I never intended to stay at, and didn't visit and
>as far as I can remember have never visited the arrangements for use of
>Boardwalk started quite late in the piece if I remember correctly. I
>agree that didn't want to provide rates etc and it does seem like they
>stuff up the TG friendliness big time.

>We should give the Boardwalk another chance for DLV2003, if only
>because "....they employ a respected member of the DLV org group..."
>(Gee {name10}, I'll have to bow and suck up to you more now that I know
>you're so respected! :-) ). Seriously we should explore what they can,
>could, will offer and see how it fits in. It sort of goes to another
>issue as well.

I think we need to consider all factors when deciding which places to
suggest for next year. At minimum to consider the Boardwalk, I think we
need a satisfactory understanding as to what happened and assurance that
it will not happen again, plus black-and-white rates that are within $10
or so with what our people can get at the Sahara, IP, Stardust, etc.

>>>Some have long-term player relations with certain hotels, others desire
>>>more upscale places. An issue that I expect will receive considerable
>>>discussion in the coming weeks is if it is even desirable to try to
>>>concentrate most people at one hotel.

>And Boardwalk actually fits into this in a way. If we look at the area
>from the south(?) going north we have Luxor, Excalibar, MGM, Monte
>Carlo, Bellagio and Aladdin and Paris as upscale hotels in that end of
>town and we have Tropicana, San Remo, Boardwalk and a little further on
>Imperial Palace. If we are to "nominate" specific hotels then this area
>of town as both high, middle and lower rate hotels all within a mile or
>so. Makes the transportation easy and leaves most people in the best
>area of the strip (IMHO)

>I therefore think we should look at Boardwalk for 2003 and see what
>comes of it. {name10} has said that the Boardwalk management acknowledged
>the problems and won't let them reoccur ( as I understand it,
>correct???). This is probably half the battle in creating a working
>relationship for any future activities in or around the Boardwalk

I still wanna see solid black-and-white dollar rates that are
competitive with such places as the Sahara.

>>I've always said that when a restroom incident occurs, it's a result of
>>somebody "pushing it", meaning being too obvious doing so in a manner
>>that could have easily been not so obvious. From the incidents I've
>>known of over the year, they almost always involve a complaint from
>>another.

>As for the use of the Ladies room I think we should be all absolutely
>honest. {name18} is eminently passable and even an experienced TG watcher
>might take 3 or 4 goes to work out she is or isn't a GG. As are so many
>of the girls BUT, and I am saying this quite bluntly, some look like
>men in skirts and can be seen and read by the dullest individual on the
>planet. Combine this with antics described at the Sahara, which are
>probably not uncommon occurrences in Las Vegas on a weekly basis, then
>you can understand how things can get out of hand.

>As {name3} has said attitude plays a part and the newcomers and even the
>oldies without confidence can often give themselves away by their
>demeanour and pose etc.

>>> 1. (Quoting {name2})

>>+>My subsequent visit there was a cleaning lady in the area and she
>>+>observed another girl and myself use the facility.

>>Quite possibly the cleaning person, who was unaware of what was agreed
>>upon, noticed multiple t-girls use the restroom and notified security,
>>who was also unaware, etc.

>>2. Security people took it upon themselves to act on what they saw to
>>be a minor violation of what is usual and customary.
[snip]
>More likely a combination of 1 and 2 IMHO.
.........................

@> From the survey summary report:

3 respondents reported restroom incidents.
.........................

>>>Restrooms, Boardwalk, General Hotel Security Discussion:

>While the restroom issue at the Boardwalk was a problem and I'm not
>downplaying that issue, I wouldn't put much stock into making the
>Boardwalk a potential central hotel for DLV, IMO. {name12} and I were
>talking to a cabbie on the way to the Boardwalk reception that knew
>quite alot about what was going on with Strip properties and he
>informed us that the Boardwalk, amongst 2 other older Strip
>properties, are scheduled for demolition in 2004.

This (future of Boardwalk property) is a recurring theme on the
alt.vacation.las-vegas newsfroup. The last thread concluded that there
were no definite plans, but that the property is aging and the people
who now own it (MGM group, iirc) are exploring all options.

The Casino Death Watch Page has listed this "at death's door" for some
time now. Although this page has no official sources, it's been
amazingly accurate at predicting which casinos will close, and often
times when.

(www.jetcafe.org/~npc/gambling/casino_death_watch.html)

>The Sahara and IP were not mentioned, BTW for demolition.

Sahara and IP have been listed on the above page as "looks healthy but
might have a hidden tumor" for at least a year.

Sahara ain't goin' away, at least for a while. They spent megabucks
renovating all three towers and the outside, not to mention the Nascar
and the roller coaster (or as they say in Indiana, "Rolley Coaster").

IP ain't goin' away either. Too profitable!

Vacation Village is dead. Maxim is dead. Frontier is supposed to be
dynamited and redeveloped, but they've been saying this since 1998.
Rumors abound regarding the Tropicana as well.

Any others I've missed?

Sorry for the digression. :)

>(Apparantly, this cabbie has been around the strip for the past 15 or
>so plus years).

And they will often times have a good feel for which way the wind is
blowing.
.........................

>>>>I've always said that when a restroom incident occurs, it's a result of
>>>>somebody "pushing it", meaning being too obvious doing so in a manner
[deletia]
>>>As for the use of the Ladies room I think we should be all absolutely
>>>honest. {name18} is eminently passable and even an experienced TG watcher
>>>might take 3 or 4 goes to work out she is or isn't a GG. As are so many
[more deletia]
>>>As {name3} has said attitude plays a part and the newcomers and even the
>>>oldies without confidence can often give themselves away by their
>>>demeanour and pose etc.

>Restroom issues: It's really simple here girls, get in, do your
>business and get out. This is not a place to primp, to hold a
>conversation, etc. I think we all agree on this. I do alot of
>mainstram places in Nashville, (e.g. the Hard Rock Cafe) but I don't
>primp in there. I get in and get out. At more GLBT friendly places,
>one can take a bit more time. It's not about passability, it's about
>doing your business, to be a bit blunt about it. Attitude, yes, does
>play a major role. Prior to DLV'01, I'd never dreamed of going into
>the 'ladies'. I do it all the time now, but under the guidelines I've
>just stated.

I would like to add one thing. Go individually! Yeah, there is security
having another with you, but it's far less likely to draw attention if
you go by yourself.

I had to very assertively tell one other to not follow me into the ladies
room over at the Riviera. "We do not go to the ladies room in groups!"
........................

>>The whole issue of the Boardwalk in 2002 has been a perplexing one. On
>>the one hand, they employ a respected member of the DLV org group,
>>which is how they got recommended to us in the first place. On the
>>other hand, they were very difficult to work with in 2002:

>>1 - slow to quote hard and fast room rates
>>2 - weren't particularly competitive on room rates
>>3 - totally mishandled restroom issues

>in answer to the 3 issues with the boardwalk. i have adressed all of
>these in the past but have not seen any of my responses posted.

{name10}'s post-DLV comments on the Boardwalk and the restroom issue appear
in digest #105 of the org list and digest #37 of the main list.

If there's ever any question of something submitted that does not get
posted, please let me know. Technical and human errors do happen, but
it's very rare that I will not include something that comes in. If you
should ever send something here and it ends up in a black hole, it's
very easy to trace what exactly happened to it.

I'm not going to intentionally hold back any submitted material.

>so for the last time..

>1 the room rate issue is a non issue.. the casion hostess in charge of
>our group quoted her best rate as of the date of an inquiry. her
>information was that if you book a room today this is the rate.. if the
>rate goes up yours does not.. if the rate goes down i will rebook you
>at the lower rate.. it seems that many people saw this as a dodge of
>some kind. i really doubt that any other hotel offered to lower your
>rate if it went down.. all denese was trying to do was give you the
>best rate she had on her desk at the time with the promise that if
>rates went lower she would lower the booking to the lower rate.. there
>is no way any casion employee dealing with anybody but the mega player
>can do any better the that and most hotels say what you booked is what
>you get..

>2. competitive is in the eye of the beholder.. some hotels had better
>rates but then they did not have the high end of the strip location.
>also i have been in rooms at both the IP and sahara and the boardwalk
>main tower rooms are nicer then both and my sisters reported no room
>maint problems that where not taken care of asap. also at the time most
>were complaning of the rates the hotel was over 80% booked in
>anticipation of a major championship fight. rates later went way
>down.. in fact my little sisters stayed at the boardwalk and on check
>in found that thier rates had been lowered yet again..

>3. the bathroom issue.. as i sent to you earlier this was a
>combination of misunderstanding and miscommunication. the director of
>security experssed his regrets it was not handled properly and we have
>agreed to discuss this in the future for not only diva but for a
>general hotel policy regarding the t community as a whole. as you
>mentioned earlier i am a respected employee of the boardwalk and this
>situation was sad but can be fixed in the future..

>with the agreement
>of the org people i would like to take transcripts of this whole issue
>to the director of security. the casino manager, the director of player
>development and the general manager.

Are there any objections to {name10} doing this? Personally, I don't have
any issue with it.

>as a general comment on the bathroom issue.. in the larger casinos we
>will encounter few problems as to the large number of facilities
>available and the dispursion of our group.. until the managment of the
>casino's are educated however we will alway have issues at smaller
>casinos when we concentrate a large number of us.. its unavoidable if
>we are then in mass not to attract attention at the bathrooms..

>rather the dismiss any club out of hand because of bathroom issues we
>need to make an effort to educate and negotiate with them.. remember
>they have no obligation to provide us with anything they dont want to
>.. however my discussions with the securtity head at the boardwalk
>opened my eyes to the other side of the issue.. 1st he had little
>understanding of the reasons that t's in dress "need" to use the female
>restrooms, 2 he had a real (and valid) concern about the response of
>the day to day guests of the hotel.

>imagine that the sahara loses 1 mainstream guest because they are
>offended by t's in the ladies room.. actually no real impact on thier
>business at the end of the day.. but a small club it can be several %
>points differance in the drop.. after our discussion he realized we had
>real and valid concerns both socialy and from a safty standpoint and
>has agreed to meet with me over the next couple of months to actually
>make a policy regarding t's in the boardwalk that are fair (we have to
>negotiate that), safe, and most of all make t's feel welcome and
>comfortable at the boardwalk.. what this will result in when all is
>said and done i do not know but rest assured they want our business and
>are trying thier best to make the situation as workable for all
>concerned as they can..
.........................

>Boardwalk Restroom Transcript

>>>with the agreement
>>>of the org people i would like to take transcripts of this whole issue
>>>to the director of security. the casino manager, the director of player
>>>development and the general manager.

>>Are there any objections to {name10} doing this? Personally, I don't have
>>any issue with it.

>Sounds like a very good idea.

I'm supposed to have din-din this coming week with The Other {name2}, so
I am sure the topic will come up, even though my feeling is she wants
to forget about it. Had that happened to me, I would have considered it
to be a major slap.

Speaking freely, she is probably the LAST one of us that a smart casino
would want to p*ss off, since she does more table action than most of
us put together.
....................

>Restrooms at Boardwalk:

>>I'm supposed to have din-din this coming week with The Other {name2}, so
>>I am sure the topic will come up, even though my feeling is she wants
[c-p]
>>Speaking freely, she is probably the LAST one of us that a smart casino
>>would want to p*ss off, since she does more table action than most of
>>us put together.

>If we need to take the spotlight off of {name2}, feel free to
>put it on me if Boardwalk needs an example of a customer that they've
>offended.

>As I've related before, I arrived just after she'd been denied use of
>the facilities and I put myself unwittingly right into the middle of
>the situation by bouncing right into the ladies room before I'd heard
>about her problems. When I came out, I was clearly tailed by security.
>Nothing came of it, and it wasn't anything sinister, but I won't go
>back to Boardwalk without a clear understanding that we won't have
>problems there next year.

>And I won't sit by quietly and see Boardwalk recommended for next year
>without the right to full use of all their restroom facilities. I've
>heard {name10}'s clear explanation of what happened this year and her
>plan to address it for the future, and I look forward to hearing the
>results of her conversations with Boardwalk management over the coming
>months. I sincerely hope something can be worked out for the reasons
>I've written previously about the advantages for DLV of having a
>long-term relationship with a smaller casino like Boardwalk.
.........................

Boardwalk situation:

>i had a meeting with denese today.. she requests that you send her
>copies of all the feed back re the boardwalk problems. delete names.

>she and i agree that we need to meet with management to resolve the
>issues as she had some impressive spending figures to support the need
>to make use of the boardwalk by T clients much easier.

>our bar figures on thurs alone make us a serious issue.

Does this mean we're considered serious drinkers? :)

>she also has some major concerns about the attitude of the security
>dept and will be haveing a major talk with them in the next day or so.

>she is already thinking about special offers and facilities for the
>diva folks next year. she didn't say so but i get the impression that
>on a spending basis we were one of the strongest groups she has gotten
>into the hotel in the last year..

>please work with us on this as both deniese and i would like to make
>the boardwalk see the light..

Ok, in my spare time today I'll collect all of the traffic and feedback
regarding this. I'll post a copy in tomorrow's mailing, and send it to
{name6} if there are no objections from the group here.

Restrooms:

This comes primarily from a thread on the DLVORG list. {name18} wanted to be
sure all DLV people were aware of this issue. Further information or
comments are welcome.

{name18} writes:

>>At the Boardwalk, things are unclear to me, I've heard several versions,
>>but have not talked to the person involved yet. I was told that one of
[bobbitt]

I was told that there was a miscommunication in their security
department, and that possibly one officer had taken it upon himself to
give one of our people some extra attention.

Comments?
.........................

7:00pm Boardwalk reception

>Okay, nothing spectacular, I understand there were some bathroom issues.
>For kind of a dive that is pretty silly.

I understand part of this was a misunderstanding or miscommunication to
the security staff.
.........................

{name18} writes:

>I was saddened to hear that some girls had problems with security this
>year at major and minor hotels while using the ladies room. It was
>especially disheartening to hear that these incidents occurred at 2
>hotels we were using as recommended DLV hotels.

>I don't want to embarrass anybody, but I think that it would be
>appropriate to have an online discussion here in the newsletter over
>the next couple of weeks about the details of these incidents and any
>follow-up discussions we've had with the hotels.

>The best way to clear up the misinformation and confusion about these
>incidents is to get things out in the open here in the general list.

Here's what I know. Anybody please feel free to jump in if I'm
incorrect, or if you have anything to add.

The two restroom incidents that I know of occurred at the Sahara and at
the Boardwalk.

In the incident at the Sahara, the person in question was not a
registered DLV participant, but a drop-in or tag-along who really did
not do much at all with our group. From what I understand, this person
got rude and confrontive with the bar staff and with security at the
Sahara, and did not behave appropriately in the restroom. I was told
that one of our other organizers smoothed things over with security and
gave the person in question a very stern talking-to.

I also understand that one of our people, who was nowhere near the scene
of the crime, was confronted by security regarding this.

At the Boardwalk, things are unclear to me, I've heard several versions,
but have not talked to the person involved yet. I was told that one of
our people was confronted by security, and that another was followed
around the casino by security.
.........................

>i spoke to the head of security at the boardwalk and the issue of the
>bathrooms was resolved and will not happen again at any future tg
>gatherings. also he is investigating the incident reported by one of
>our people of being followed by security. he said that should of never
>happened.

>additional feed back from the boardwalk. they would like to have us
>back. they found our group to be entertaining, well behaved and in
>terms of boardwalk clients a little on the spendy side. i not only
>heard this from denise (the casino hostess) but also from the casino
>manager and the general manager (when he 1st realized what our group
>was he had some reservations, but when it was all said and done he
>extends an invitation for use to return) not only for diva next year
>but at any time as individuals or small groups.
.........................

>The Boardwalk reception was kind of a non event and slow to get going.
>{name7} and I walked across the casino floor to get players cards for
>which we had to show our drivers licenses. That was fun, NOT, but the
>staff at the player's club desk didn't even blink. So there I am
>playing the slots in the middle of the casino, dress for the La Femme
>show, and nobody is paying me any mind. Since I had the player's card I
>went back the next day to play the slots, won 2 fifty dollar jackpots
>within 15 minutes, and of course generously donated it back to the
>casino over the next hour.

>I liked that hotel as it is a Holiday Inn at the middle of the strip,
>has good access in and out. It would be a good hotel for DLV2003 if
>they come up with a good room rate. {name9} was staying there and she had
>no problems and liked it.

It's my understanding that the contract with Holiday Inn (who only
managed the hotel portion) ran out early this year and the Boardwalk
people now run it themselves. That's what they tell me (the ubiquitous
"they") anyway.
.........................
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
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