Subject: dlvorg Special Michelle-Monique issue ...
From: Annie (annie)
Date: Thu May 30 2002 - 08:37:34 CDT
In this mailing:
Org List
This mailing
Various items
Monique writes
Administrivia
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This mailing:
Two items that were planned for this mailing will go out later, most
likely tomorrow.
First is the preliminary survey report. It's long, and two very good
summary items came in, so I'm holding that off for a day to keep this
mailing reasonable and to not dilute the two main items.
I was planning to include the vote totals with this mailing, since it
looked like 24 hours was going to pass by the time this went out, but
one more vote came in. Assuming no more votes come in, we'll have the
results out either this evening or tomorrow.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Various items:
Michelle (NZ) writes:
>Hi
Hewwo :)
>Actually this was one of the best digests so far. Lots of varying stuff
>of REAL value (Not to say other stuff in other digests wasn't valuable
>or interesting but...)
>>+I had breakfast every day at the Blueberry Pancake house on Flamingo.
>>+They were very accommodating. And their patrons were friendly as well.
>Mindy, Diane and two girls from Hawaii and I and others had an early
>breakfast their after the Sunday Flex Goodbye do. The one we to was
>just down the road from Flex. Great food and I ate more than I expected
>to to be honest. The waitress was a wee (tiny) bit antsy when we first
>appeared but seemed to relax after she realised we weren't going to
>perform live sex acts on the table or whatever! :-)
Blueberry Hill has always been highly rated by our people. I have yet to
hear a bad report about any of their places.
>>+Althoug I love Sahsa's and Milano's I would really have liked to spend
>>+more social time like we did Friday at Goodtimes. That was a good
>>+opportunity to slow down from the hectic pace and share meaningful
>>+conversation.
>Actually all three places were good. Milanos only issue is its size but
>it acts as a great over flow for Sasha's. Despite my earlier comments I
>accept that GoodTimes probably wasn't as crowded as I first imagined
>although I have still have some reservations as it being the best place
>for a group photo (lighting, space, etc). Probably not a lot we can do
>about that.
Is there anyplace that *would* be good for a group photo? That is, a
place where we would actually be able to get a good percentage of our
people assembled in one place?
>>+Anyway Diva Las Vegas could be held the week before the Pride Parade.
>Pride parade seems like its at the end on N+I week and DLV SHOULKD
>avoid that week as the hotel prices do go up as well as the general
>increase in people a convention brings...IMHO.
And from a personal standpoint, having DLV during N+I would lock me out
one of two ways. If I am the one who goes from our department, I would
not be able to make many activities, if I am not the one to go to N+I, I
would be expected to be at the office while somebody else is out.
>>It could be a Good Thing<tm> if we could include this.
>Agreed subject to the above comments
>>However, for the record, I am opposed to delaying our decision on the
>>DLV 2003 dates if this is not known by the end of the summer.
>Agreed.
>>+Also, we found it difficult to mix in as
>>+newcomers as most people had their associations already formed.
>>In 6 years of DLV, this is the first time I have ever heard anything
>>like this. Almost universally reported is just the opposite, being
>>uneasy walking in, but being just one of the girls a few minutes
>>later.
>I think the focus of this comment should be on the associations. It is
>always easier to talk with people you know or who you've talked with
>before, etc. Especially towards the Fri, Sat, Sun end of the week, new
>comers might find breaking in "groups" more difficult. OTOH new comers
>certainly appeared to be welcomed by everyone that I saw and I can
>vouch for a very friendly reception when I was a new comer.
>>+We had to instigate contack and were somewhat reticent to do so so as
>>+not to "but in to conversations". We think a newcomers type group
>>+would be very helpful in some low key socializing atmosphere.
>I noticed this year...far more than in the past... That people were
>hungry for the stories behind the "folk lore of DLV" in the past. Annie
>you need to start writing it up and sending it out so the new comers
>know why we go to the DelMar Motel!!!!
I think we definitely need to record the various anecdotes that have
occurred over the past 6 years, from the baggage mixup (sir, can you
describe the contents of this bag) to 7-11, to the bath house at Keys,
to Galiano {blush}, the Delmar (we now have 3 stories there), Densie's
glasses and Lester The Molester, etc. One of the others sent in a very
amusing tale of a trunk that would not slam shut that will be in this
Sunday's mailing. I think we do need to put these folktales down in
hardcopy. :)
>>I'm very surprised. I'm hoping this is an isolated case. I watched
>>closely for anybody who was alone or did not seem to be having a good
>>time. I didn't see any. I observed newcomers and oldtimers mixing at
>>every activity. Personally, I hung around with people I had known for
>>years, and for those I had known for hours. From my observation,
>>everybody seemed to mix well.
>Annie, I think you need to remember that most people identify with you
>whether you met them or not. You are our leader and the inspiration
>behind DLV. Anyone coming for the first time will make a bee line to
>say hello to you but may then find it more difficult to mix. IMHO.
I also tried to make a bee-line to anybody who was new, and I tried,
anyway, to be sure to introduce newcomers to those in the immediate
vicinity.
>>>Unless Annie
>>>Annatoma receives a written apology from Boardwalk management, I
>>>personally would strongly question their inclusion for DLV 2003.
>I think "Slim" just left town again, Annie! :-)
(You won't let me forget that one, will ya? :)
I'm gonna (try to) get together with the other Annie this coming week,
and I'm sure I'll hear more detail. I'm sure it was a major low point
on her trip. :(
>Tinas excellent analysis of Restrooms hotels, radar blips etc...deleted
>but...
>In defence of a place I never intended to stay at, and didn't visit and
>as far as I can remember have never visited the arrangements for use of
>Boardwalk started quite late in the piece if I remember correctly. I
>agree that didn't want to provide rates etc and it does seem like they
>stuff up the TG friendliness big time.
>We should give the Boardwalk another chance for DLV2003, if only
>because "....they employ a respected member of the DLV org group..."
>(Gee Mindy, I'll have to bow and suck up to you more now that I know
>you're so respected! :-) ). Seriously we should explore what they can,
>could, will offer and see how it fits in. It sort of goes to another
>issue as well.
I think we need to consider all factors when deciding which places to
suggest for next year. At minimum to consider the Boardwalk, I think we
need a satisfactory understanding as to what happened and assurance that
it will not happen again, plus black-and-white rates that are within $10
or so with what our people can get at the Sahara, IP, Stardust, etc.
>>>Some have long-term player relations with certain hotels, others desire
>>>more upscale places. An issue that I expect will receive considerable
>>>discussion in the coming weeks is if it is even desirable to try to
>>>concentrate most people at one hotel.
>And Boardwalk actually fits into this in a way. If we look at the area
>from the south(?) going north we have Luxor, Excalibar, MGM, Monte
>Carlo, Bellagio and Aladdin and Paris as upscale hotels in that end of
>town and we have Tropicana, San Remo, Boardwalk and a little further on
>Imperial Palace. If we are to "nominate" specific hotels then this area
>of town as both high, middle and lower rate hotels all within a mile or
>so. Makes the transportation easy and leaves most people in the best
>area of the strip (IMHO)
>I therefore think we should look at Boardwalk for 2003 and see what
>comes of it. Mindy has said that the Boardwalk management acknowledged
>the problems and won't let them reoccur ( as I understand it,
>correct???). This is probably half the battle in creating a working
>relationship for any future activities in or around the Boardwalk
I still wanna see solid black-and-white dollar rates that are
competitive with such places as the Sahara.
>>I've always said that when a restroom incident occurs, it's a result of
>>somebody "pushing it", meaning being too obvious doing so in a manner
>>that could have easily been not so obvious. From the incidents I've
>>known of over the year, they almost always involve a complaint from
>>another.
>As for the use of the Ladies room I think we should be all absolutely
>honest. Tina is eminently passable and even an experienced TG watcher
>might take 3 or 4 goes to work out she is or isn't a GG. As are so many
>of the girls BUT, and I am saying this quite bluntly, some look like
>men in skirts and can be seen and read by the dullest individual on the
>planet. Combine this with antics described at the Sahara, which are
>probably not uncommon occurrences in Las Vegas on a weekly basis, then
>you can understand how things can get out of hand.
>As Annie has said attitude plays a part and the newcomers and even the
>oldies without confidence can often give themselves away by their
>demeanour and pose etc.
>>> 1. (Quoting Annatoma)
>>+>My subsequent visit there was a cleaning lady in the area and she
>>+>observed another girl and myself use the facility.
>>Quite possibly the cleaning person, who was unaware of what was agreed
>>upon, noticed multiple t-girls use the restroom and notified security,
>>who was also unaware, etc.
>>2. Security people took it upon themselves to act on what they saw to
>>be a minor violation of what is usual and customary.
[snip]
>More likely a combination of 1 and 2 IMHO.
>Photos and Vetos. This came up last year and and seems to centre on one
>or so individuals. Quite frankly if you they put themselves in a
>position where they can be photo'd then they should expect, purposely
>or accidentally that others will see the photos. If they want photos
>for there own records etc, bring a camera and get people to take your
>photos and then go home and get them developed or downloaded and
>there's no risk.
Agreed. If she did not want to be in the golf group photo, she should
have waved the camera off or stepped down when the cameras approached.
>>>Personally, I wouldn't like to spend an average of $100 or more a
>>>night for a place to sleep. Perhaps the Sahara staff were a little
>>>lax on the room maintenance this year but to me it was no big deal as
>>>there were more than enough towels for 2 to last a couple of days.. A
>>>phone call fixed that.
>>>A similar request to refrain from using the ladies' rooms was made at
>>>the Sahara but was apparently triggered by a different situation about
>>>which I will say nothing more as that road has been travelled a few
>>>times already.
>Well there you go. If we get too uptight we can't use either Sahara or
>Boardwalk.
It's my understanding that the two (three counting the one last year)
at the Sahara were aimed at specific incidents and individuals. I know
many of our people, myself included, used the casino restrooms at the
Sahara this year, many times, without incident, over the entire DLV
and N+I period.
>Note: Agenda item for DLORG. Select low, mid and upper range hotels as
>"nominated" DLV hotels. Preferably in the same general area.
>>>On smoking, a little consideration can go a long way, especially in a
>>>small environment like an automobile or a dinner table.
>Actually, I did note that the smokers I was with were quite conscious
>of my non smoking habits and asked or deferred from smoking most of the
>time.
>>>How about Showgirls of magic for next year? I laughed to hard I
>>>couldn't breathe...this one should be a "must see" for everyone.
>>I second this. In fact, I volunteer to "adopt" this activity. :)
>And I'll vote for its inclusion!!!
I think we have our first DLV 2003 activity on the slate. :)
>Actually this may not have been widely known but us girls were the last
>out of the theatre and we lined up to see the show girls and Tiny. I
>was the first and Tiny was doing his normal shake hands, greet thanks
>and goodbye act. About two thirds through this, maybe when I said
>Thanks for a Great show or something, he his eyes opened wide, and he
>did a double take, his head spun round and he suddenly remembered that
>DLV was in town! He went from passive greeting and a very excited
>person. I thought it was quite funny at the time.
>>Upscale DLV:
>>>As far as upscale hotels, a DLV participant may stay in any of the
>>>hotels in Las Vegas, depending upon their budget restraints.
[bobbitt]
>1. I think as an organisation we need to identify an upscale hotel even
>if we don't base any activities there although hard to see that we
>might if it has a decent show etc.
>2. Bellagio had a good moderately priced lunch buffet. $14.95 as I
>recall and it was good quality and range of food. We were all treated
>well when I was there.
I don't have any objection to suggesting Bellagio for those who want a
more upscale experience.
However, I do think we need to discuss and agree if we're gonna try to
concentrate our people more (as has been suggested) or disperse them
more (as has also been suggested).
>3. I've mentioned before having two tracks, one for the Course 301
>"Advanced Transgenderism" and one for the "Course 101 Beginners in real
>world feminine fun". I think some of the upscale hotel events are only
>possible with former group without some problems. Gondola Rides at The
>Venetian or Lunch at Paris on the Veranda restaurant are going result in
>large exposure to the general public and may not be ideal for the shy
>beginner.
>So I agree with everyone so far that we should keep DLV affordable and
>attainable for the lower ends of the $$'s and TG scale but not forget
>that there is (increasingly) a more sophisticated and upmarket audience
>for this event.
>Anyway since the value of the NZD has rocketed against the US dollar
>since I returned home, this is now worth 2.4 cents. :-)
And, still worth every penny, thanks. :)
>Hugs to all.
Hugs back. :)
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Monique writes:
>(oh, I broke convention here, my responses are above and not below the
>comments and feedback)
That's fine, I'll just un-break the convention. :)
>>+However, I think Sat. was Prom night for one or two local high schools.
>>+I saw several groups of very young individuals checking in (and
>>+checking out Sun.), with coolers and coolers of drink. No doubt to
>>+swim, hot tub, and party. They were in your face obnoxious.
>Yes, Saturday was prom nite. How do I know that, outside of the
>obvious, two very nice girls (GG) approached Rhianna and myself while
>waiting for the valet to bring the car around to go to LaCage, and
>asked if we were performers and told us we looked gorgeous. I simply
>said that we were just going out for the evening and that we were not
>performers. They asked if they could get pictures with us with their
>camera. These two girls had a great start to their evening out. And it
>was a very positive experience for them as it was for us. (as an
>aside, this has happened with Rhianna and I before out at the malls in
>Nashville on a couple of different occassions,dressed in daywear, and
>not in evening/show/club wear)
>>+I had breakfast every day at the Blueberry Pancake house on Flamingo.
>>+They were very accommodating. And their patrons were friendly as well.
>>+Althoug I love Sahsa's and Milano's I would really have liked to spend
>>+more social time like we did Friday at Goodtimes. That was a good
>>+opportunity to slow down from the hectic pace and share meaningful
>>+conversation.
>>+I had a great time, what too too little of it I had to spend, at
>>+DLV2002.
>Again, very positive feedback! This is so great to hear.
Almost everything is overwhelmingly positive. Good job, gang!
>>+Anyway Diva Las Vegas could be held the week before the Pride Parade.
>
>>+Would like to stay a bit longer in LV to attend both, but not with a
>>+whole week in between. Thanks
[snip]
>This would be nice, if workable. My only off the heel thought, is that
>many of the DLV'03 attendees may not be able to spend 2 weeks in
>Vegas.
>I think it would be great and should definately be kept open for
>discussion. I'd, personally, be willing to stay an extra day or two
>after DLV ends to attend some pride events. We need to find out the
>dates, schedule of activities (esp. those oriented to t-community
>events) etc. Nashville Pride Week starts in two weeks from now and
>there are is only one evening and one full day that the transgendered
>community would have interest in attending (for info on this, the web
>URL is www.opennashville.org).
>I also agree with Annie about not delaying the DLV'03 dates.
[snip]
>>+Also, we found it difficult to mix in as
>>+newcomers as most people had their associations already formed.
>>In 6 years of DLV, this is the first time I have ever heard anything
>>like this. Almost universally reported is just the opposite, being
>>uneasy walking in, but being just one of the girls a few minutes
>>later.
[bobbitt]
>I'm very dissapointed to hear this. I also thought that we covered all
>the bases with the sisters attending DLV'02 being welcome and be
>comfortable with the attendees, age notwithstanding. I know from
>DLV'01 and new girls I met at DLV'02 to range in the age group from
>55+. And I enjoyed meeting the girls somewhat older than I was and am
>still in contact with several of these girls.
>Like Annie, I didn't notice anyone not getting with the other girls
>after introductions. As co-nametaker, I feel somewhat responsible for
>this and I'm saddened to hear this feedback. Darn.
Looking back at all this, I think the one person was an isolated
incident. Others reported the same thing they have been reporting for
the last 6 years, that the group is very inclusive, and easy to approach
from a newcomer's perspective.
>>>Restrooms, Boardwalk, General Hotel Security Discussion:
>While the restroom issue at the Boardwalk was a problem and I'm not
>downplaying that issue, I wouldn't put much stock into making the
>Boardwalk a potential central hotel for DLV, IMO. Rhianna and I were
>talking to a cabbie on the way to the Boardwalk reception that knew
>quite alot about what was going on with Strip properties and he
>informed us that the Boardwalk, amongst 2 other older Strip
>properties, are scheduled for demolition in 2004.
This (future of Boardwalk property) is a recurring theme on the
alt.vacation.las-vegas newsfroup. The last thread concluded that there
were no definite plans, but that the property is aging and the people
who now own it (MGM group, iirc) are exploring all options.
The Casino Death Watch Page has listed this "at death's door" for some
time now. Although this page has no official sources, it's been
amazingly accurate at predicting which casinos will close, and often
times when.
(www.jetcafe.org/~npc/gambling/casino_death_watch.html)
>The Sahara and IP were not mentioned, BTW for demolition.
Sahara and IP have been listed on the above page as "looks healthy but
might have a hidden tumor" for at least a year.
Sahara ain't goin' away, at least for a while. They spent megabucks
renovating all three towers and the outside, not to mention the Nascar
and the roller coaster (or as they say in Indiana, "Rolley Coaster").
IP ain't goin' away either. Too profitable!
Vacation Village is dead. Maxim is dead. Frontier is supposed to be
dynamited and redeveloped, but they've been saying this since 1998.
Rumors abound regarding the Tropicana as well.
Any others I've missed?
Sorry for the digression. :)
>(Apparantly, this cabbie has been around the strip for the past 15 or
>so plus years).
And they will often times have a good feel for which way the wind is
blowing.
>He gave me a few pieces of literature about the types of conventions
>(ranging in size from 50 to 2,000) and the hotel properties that are
>utilized for this. I intend to copy this and forward this on to Annie
>in the weeks ahead.
Thanks. If you need a snailmail address, lemme know.
>BTW, this cabbie driver was very transgendered friendly, but they all
>were IMO for the cabs I took to and from venues.
Hey, we're good customers! We pay without arguing, we tip well, and we
don't threaten to report them to the "TA" for petty stuff. :)
>>>For 2003, we need to make sure we recommend a hotel where we can use
>>>any restroom at any time. How to accomplish that is a question that I
>>>don't have an answer for yet. I'm glad we have time to work on it this
>>>summer.
>How to accomplish it, simple, IMHO, approach the management. I will
>once again repeat that we, overall speaking, have not had a problem
>with DLV attendees at the Sahara and the IP historically. They are not
>upscale places, but I don't really care. I'm there to crash, get
>dressed and go out (and to have a nice cheapie late nite dinner or
>very early breakfast at the hotel 24/7 coffee shop and socalize with
>the DLV sisters that join me).
>If we really want to consider a more 'central' location for hotels for
>future DLV's, I'm game. It does make timing issues to go to various
>venues, etc. more convienient.
>On the otherhand, I also wish to remind us all of this point...DLV is
>a 'vacation' and not a 'convention'.
Thank you. Yes, we do need to be reminded of this every so often. :) :)
>Conventions are usually held in a central location (like SCC or
>Fantasia Fair, for examples). DLV attendees can stay where ever they
>wish to...it's their vacation afterall.
>I still like the DLV model of suggesting a few properties that
>previous attendees have stayed with little or no problems. IMHO. If we
>were to suggest a cental location, and speaking ignornately, I would
>say the San Remo hotel/casino (where the Showgirls of Magic show was
>held). I felt VERY comfortable there, not only in the showbar, but
>prior to going into the showbar talking with casino employees and the
>cute GG that was behind the bar just outside the show theater.
Actually, the San Remo might be a candidate. We've had people stay there
before, no complaints that I know of. (Sarah, are you listening in?)
However (comma) taking a trip to the real world, I don't think we're
going to be able to un-suggest the Sahara without some major griping.
[whack]
>>From what I understand, both of the restroom incidents at the Sahara
>>were cases of somebody being quite obvious, resulting in complaints from
[hack]
>Annie, your understanding is correct with respect to the Sahara.
[deletia]
> I agree with Tina that if we negotiate with one or more properties for
> rates, conditions, etc., one make-or-break condition should be that
> there are no restrictions on our use of any facilities. This, however,
> is very much a two-way street. Our people do have to remember to be a
[more deletia]
>Ditto!
>>Smoking:
>>>>>>>6. Ditto Gina's comments about smoking. Must say I had a hard time
>I'm a smoker and I don't take any offense to these comments.regarding
>smoking. I will say, however, that clubs and bars do tend to have
>smokers there. As I'm sure you California girls know or those of you
>who have gone out enfemme at GLBT clubs in California, ya'll go
>outside to smoke. Period. I have no problem with that. All I have got
>to say is if someone is smoking next to you, eaisly suggest that it
>bothers you. The group of girls that come to DLV are a very
>understanding group of girls and probably would take little offense to
>you stating to them that your cigarrette smoke bothers them. I tend
>to be aware of our non-smoking sisters that I'm talking to and I try to
>keep the smoking down to a minimum or go elsewhere to smoke. At least
>that is what I do, for what it is worth.
>I until now, refrained from saying anything about this, but this topic
>keeps surfacing from time to time; hence my comments from those of us
>that have a nicotine habit.
>>>As for the photos by the individual who 'raised such a stink', I took
>>>several individual photos of that person on the agreed upon condition
>>>that they would NOT be published. All my photos were shared with
[snip]
>To Rhianna and the entire DLVorg group, those pics that got sent to the
>staging area of the girl that didn't want her pics posted, that is my
>fault. I was so busy with other transgendered events after DLV that
>were upcoming, I just mass mailed the entire set of pics from
>Rhianna's, mine and another sisters camera that were downloaded to my
>laptop to the staging area, that I didn't scan or omit those. For
>that, I apologize. Fortunately, that is why the staging area is there.
Yes, the process works, and yes, that's why we post those in a staging
area.
>I also, in my past comments to the DLV'02 org group, have been lack to
>recognize one of our DLV'02 organizers, Rhianna Roberts. Rhianna was my
>roomie for DLV'02 and she really helped in the background with the work
>I was doing while at DLV'02. She helped me keep the books straight
>with regard to $$'s collected for LaFemme, double checked my figures,
>got the nametags in alphebetical order at the DLV'02 venues to make my
>job eaiser, taking a huge number of pictures during DLV'02 and all in
>all help me keep my sanity during all the work I was doing at DLV'02.
>All the organizers of DLV'02 did a fantastic job this year, but I feel
>that Rhianna deserves a pat on the back from me in front of the DLV'02
>org group. Thanks Sis!
Yes, thanks, Rhianna. Rhianna was indeed an active and an appreciated
member of the DLVORG group this past year.
Everybody here, including those who are not as visible as others, are
valued and appreciated. And thanks to Monique for bringing this up.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
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