Subject: dlvorg Schedule, comments, dressing-down, etc. ...
From: Annie (annie )
Date: Sun Jun 24 2001 - 00:13:22 CDT
In this mailing:
Notes from downunder, and first draft schedule
More comments
Shopping and such
Dressing up and down
Outside comment
Another dressing opinion
Administrivia
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Notes from downunder, and first draft schedule:
Michelle (NZ) writes:
>Thought I'd provide some random thoughts after reading Tina's, Cats and
>others extended detailed comments earlier today.
>I guess I had come with the intention to go to more than I eventually
>did but some circumstances sort of got in the way at short notice.
...
>Daytime Events
>==============
>It hasn't been necessarily been my plan to attend day time events at
>DLV in the past for various reasons. Shopping is easier by myself and
>I've always felt large groups of TGers attracted attention.
>This year however I was planning on doing a couple of things and then
>fate got in the way.
>Let me see:
>Milanos - Arrived late to LV because I managed to get a couple of days
>work with a customer up in Seattle and San Francisco, since I just
>happened to be in the USA :-). By the time I got to LV it was too late
>for the Wednesday things.
>Movies Friday. Thought I'd do this but then I didn't get to the
>previous evening thingie that was to tell us where we going and what
>the movie was. As it happened I understand it never happened but....
>Friday Morning Grand Canyon. Misunderstanding on my part and
>complicated by not going to Thursday night meeting.
>Now you might ask why miss Thursday. Well to cut a long story short
>there was an IT disaster (of sorts) at one my clients who seemed to
>require that I know every intimate detail. Net result was twenty some
>chargeable hours while I was meant to be on the other side of the
>world. Still not sure whether I was happy ($$$) or sad.. missed events.
>Would have loved to have done the hike (didn't happen as I understood
>it) and definitely world have liked the golf but I selected an N+I
>program that went Sunday / Monday and since it cost somewhat more than
>DLV and I pay for it myself (I'm a self employed (multi-gender)
>computer consultant) the choice was obvious if not necessarily easy.
>I also missed the last night because of the aforementioned problems in
>NZ. Could have killed the (normally nice considerate real GG) women who
>organised the conference call to start 15 minutes before the start of
>the "Bi Bi" get together and then rang to firstly delay and then
>finally cancel same some 90 minutes later. :-)
...
>Out and about in LV
>===================
>While I didn't attend the daytime events I was out and about dressed
>(casually, I might add) and had next to no problems. I have previously
>described a minor incident in the Belz Factory outlets but that aside I
>visited most of the main casinos, lost money (not much) in most and
>made some in others. Walked through the shops in Ceasars, Aladdin,
>Venetian. Attended N+I for four days.
>One thing I didn't do this time was get a chance to eat out except at
>Sahara for the buffet.
>I know one couple sitting by me at the Sahara buffet talked of only
>coming to a couple DLV events because the SO was obviously less than
>interested and she could only find so much to do for five or so days in
>LV.
>Maybe it is that some people can only put up with so much fun!?
>Actually to be fair the point I was making is that those with SO's do
>actually have to find something for them to do. I know if my SO was
>with me that I probably would NOT be allowed to dress up fulltime for
>the entire time in LV. That is why she stays at home mostly!!
You may have another point here on why the attendance was better at the
evening events. Very few TG/SO couples showed up at the daytime events.
I'm assuming here that they are off doing touristy things, shopping on
their own, etc.
It's been said that some of those couples are doing DLV as only one
activity of many during an extended weekend vacation.
...
>Follies and Sunday Night
>========================
>Would have liked to have gone but my list of reasons for not, include:
>- Too late.
>- Too late on the first night of two full conference days at N+I.
>- Prepayment hoops especially from NZ
>- No credit card option. Since I pay everything by CC this is an issue.
>- Uncertainty on whether I would finally get to DLV and N+I (long
>uninteresting story but having organised to be there in Nov 2000,
>things became uncertain in March and April).
>I don't think I was the only one that was in this position. I would
>suggest that others had issues with getting organised to pre pay and
>you ladies mostly live in the USA. If you put yourselves in the shoes
>of the new comers, first timers and other newly forming women, they may
>well have felt that spending $$$ on this, four / five days into an
>event was a bit risky.
>As a matter of interest was the showroom actually full?
No. Late shows on Sunday seldom sell out. In fact, the booth next to
the one we were in was vacant and one of our people moved over and
stretched out after the show started and it was obvious it was
unoccupied.
Somebody (Tina?) told me that booth was one held by the house for the
local whales (fatcat high-rollers).
>Had this been
>scheduled for mid week would the hotel / organiser be more amenable to
>flexible numbers?
It's my understanding that the showrooms that use that type of
computerized seat assignment program are VERY INflexible as to variable
numbers. One obvious exception is the case of comped high rollers, but
that is handled by reserving several of the better booths in the name
of the house for just that.
Actually, Tropicana is better than some, as they let you choose for the
most part out of what is still open for that performance. One of the
places (Stardust I think) only offers what their computer calls the
"best available at the time" to the normal customers, take it or leave
it.
I always used to bitch about having to bribe for good seats at the
shows, but that was before I've dealt with variable-size groups. I'm
actually glad Kenny has kept the Maitre'd seating, since we've always
been able to get very good seats -- when I've phoned them, I have been
sure to mention we would "take care of" the showroom staff. We've never
had bad seats for Kenny's show.
>Finally on this subject, I appreciate that Tina has done a great job
>organising events like this over at least the past two years.
Yes, I agree. {in unison} Thanks, Tina! :)
...
>Networld+InterOp
>================
>For some of us this is ACTUALLY THE JUSTIFICATION for going to Las
>Vegas.
>As Annie (rightfully) says the main programs are Tue-Thu however the
>two day tutorials are Mon-Tue and Thu-Fri, and there are several
>specialised events such as Strategic InterOp (which I am interested in)
>that now start Sunday.
>The reason for this "expansion" is delegate complaints about Strategic
>InterOp over lapping some of the General conference (Tue-Wed-Thu) and
>Keynotes (Tue, Wed, Thu?).
>I think this will be an issue irrespective of the program days but
>maybe the impact can be lessened by advancing the start by a day and
>ending on the Sunday evening.
...
>Revised Schedule
>================
>So....
>I agree with some of the previous comments about shifting everything
>forward by one day. This might create a schedule similar to the
>following (please allow for my natural creativity with this):
>Tue 30 Apr 2002 : PM : Meal
> Ev : Lounge / Get together
>
>Wed 1 May 2002 : AM :
> PM : Shopping
> Buffet Welcome Meal
> Ev : Traditional Good times / Get together
>
>Thu 2 May 2002 : AM : Day Trip
> PM : Day Trip
> Ev : Get together at a Major Casino Bar / place
>
>Fri 3 May 2002 : AM : Golf
> PM : Meal
> Ev : Las Vegas Show?
>
>Sat 4 May 2002 : AM :
> PM : something casual that finishes mid afternoon
> Ev : TG Show (LaCage / Kenny)
> RHPS ?
>
>Sun 5 May 2002 : AM :
> PM :
> Ev : Good Bye / Get Together
>Some other benefits of this include:
>- Maintaining the big / glamour events for the weekend
>- Completion of these to allow people to return home by Monday
>- Fits the Calendar week
Comments on the proposed schedule?
Remember, we want to have the days of DLV proposed by the end of July
and set by the end of August. I think we can consider this to be a
motion on the table to consider Tuesday, April 30, thru Sunday, May 5,
as the DLV 2002 dates.
...
>Golf and other outdoorsie stuff
>===============================
>I know I wasn't the only one who didn't play 'cause of the Monday time.
>The other person had to go back to work as I recall.
>I personally would like to see this or some other type of outdoor event
>be attractive to a larger portion of people so we go and do things as a
>group and "bond" so to speak.
The only major problem I saw with Golf this year is that it was not set
in the schedule until quite late.
We've had suggestions of, and even offers to lead, some more rigorous
outdoorsy activities such as hiking and rock climbing, but these have
not ever generated enough interest to even pencil them in on the
schedule.
What has worked has been golf, obviously, and the air tour, and small
car/van excursions to nearby (hour or less) scenic areas such as Valley
Of Fire and Red Rock Canyon.
Golf is of major interest to some, and of no interest to others. The
scenic trips have always had a fair to good turnout for those that do
not take up the better part of a day.
>Swimming and boating have been suggested in lieu of the flying trips of
>this year. As long as people get in behind this type of thing then I
>would see them as being real good value.
Yes, boating has been suggested, and we already have one volunteer to
bring a ski boat. I kinda see this as drawing a smaller audience, such
as did the air tours this year. It also presents a major challenge to
those who wish to do such things as ski en femme. :)
Comments on boating? Any handles on how many of our people would be
interested in something like this. Once the craft is underway, this is
about as "private" as you can get.
...
>Casual Dress
>============
>I think the term "Dress down" may have been unfortunate. While I took
>it mean "casual" I can see that some didn't quite appreciate it in the
>same way. Casual women's clothing does not ONLY mean jeans and a
>T-Shirt and there is a wide range of dresses, skirt and top outfits in
>addition to stylish pants type clothing that are feminine and perfectly
>.... "casual"!
>I suspect that part of the real difference between the experienced
>TGers and the newly forming women (abbreviated to NFW from now on) is
>simply experience and maybe this can be addressed in the pre DLV tomb
>that Annie sends out. This might include some hints about suitable make
>up styles etc.
Hmmm ... NFW ... should I add that to the glossary? :)
Seriously, not to make that thing longer, but I think we could add some
more explicit notes on what attire is acceptable for each activity.
Hmmmm .... Do we print a schedule with little icons ... like a circle
with a slash thru a miniskirt for a shopping mall trip? :) :) :) :)
But really, maybe some general case hints on what is appropriate for
what types of events might be in order.
>In all honesty, as some one said prior to this years DLV, there is a
>(significant) portion of us that do not pass and whether they are
>wearing mini skirts, FM boots with 7 inch heels and see through tops or
>jeans and a white cotton blouse the end result is still.... a man in
>women's clothing.
I will admit that passing is more of a challenge for some, and that
some of them have chosen to not really try to pass. There are endless-
loop discussions on passing on the t* newsfroups and such, and even in
the archives of the DLV list. To try to pass or not will most likely be
a personal choice of everybody who attends DLV.
...
>Payment
>=======
>I think there should be a fee payable to attend. Say $20.00. Payable in
>advance by a variety of recognised methods. Use the funds for the
>welcome and closing drinks or something. If this was set-up (and I'm
>not volunteering) this same mechanism could be used to address the
>prepayment issues for tickets etc.
Let's see ... how do I put this without sounding like I'm blindly
poo-pooing it ... (and remember, it's ok to agree to disagree)
It's like this ... I don't see a need for it. If anybody thinks there
is, I'm more than willing to listen, though.
The model of DLV does not require any up-front cash. Sure, somebody
could pump the funds for such things as drinks and show tickets through
a DLV account, but I don't see any reason for doing so.
If we get involved in the money-schlepping business, it is gonna
require a volunteer (other than me) to come forward and agree to take
care of the collection, the disbursement, and the accounting. (I am
not an accountant, nor do I play one on line.)
Do I dare even open the can of worms and ask what if the funds
collected fail to meet those intended to be disbursed? Somebody (not
me, I've had my turn -- I volunteered to underwrite a t* event some
years ago, once is enough for this lifetime) will either have to dig
deep to make up the difference, or else explain to the Great Unwashed
Masses why they paid for a show and didn't get to see a show.
>BTW the only reason I'm not volunteering (and it is a good, valid and
>very convenient one) is that doing it from NZ creates a lot of
>problems.
And, the only reason(s) I'm not volunteering are that I don't think it's
necessary, and I think it would be a major pain in the butt to handle the
$$$ for something like that.
Comments, gang?
>Anyway as Annie indicates there are issues related to this but it would
>provide some increased certainty on the numbers front as well as
>creating some "hospitality" for a couple of events. This could, if
>appropriate be extended to cover the buffet meal or any low cost event
>where getting good numbers benefits everyone.
If a more convenient method of payment is desired, for such options as
shows and the like (and if a volunteer, again not me, steps forward to
handle it) I'm sure something like Paypal or Billpoint or the like
could be used to allow somebody to pay by credit card or electronic
check.
>Anything that is left over could be used for future promotions BUT THAT
>IS NOT THE OBJECTIVE OF PROPOSING A FEE.
To call the burning question early in the game, is there anybody here
(and this would almost certainly have to come from the people who are
on this list) who is willing to step forward and volunteer to be kind
of a Treasurer/Co(n|mp)troller for DLV 2002?
>Anyway last year this was my two cents worth however the New Zealand
>dollar has now devalued to such an extent that it is now closer to one
>cent.
Seriously, your comments are priceless in anybody's currency. Feedback
like this is highly valuable to both understanding what happens, good
and bad, at a previous event, and in planning events in the future.
Thanks again for taking the time to put this down, as well as the
initiative to get the schedule for DLV 2002 started.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
More comments:
>>Avoiding Mothers Day is probably a Good Thing. Having DLV the first
>>week in May avoids this.
>I agree with this. Also resturants tend to be more busy on that weekend
>with families. Some resturants may be more sensitive on such weekends
>because of the families in their resturants than on other days as far
>as accepting our group.
>>1. If we want a longer DLV, extend it earlier one day, thus having the
[snip]
>I arrived one day before DLV, but it was for prepping myself, as in
>getting over jet lag and a red-eye flight. I'm not sure if I would
>have wanted to go to do any activity that day. I was just busy with
>the normal logistics on checking in waiting for the room to be ready,
>getting into the room and just relaxing. If we were to have an
>activity, it would be something easy going and relaxing ... to talk,
>eat something.
>> (Low turnout on daytime activities.) Is this just
>>a lack of interest, would they rather do other things during this
>>timeframe, or does this type of thing scare the hell out of them?
>One was the gun show that happened on Saturday and Sunday. For gun
>enthusiasts... it was a show worth attending. It was a big show, and
>took time to see everything. For me, there are no shows like it back
>home, so when it was a LV at the same time, I wanted very much to see
>one.
IMAO, anybody who is confident enough to go to a gun show has passed
the out.in.public course and should be able to go anywhere, anytime.
...
>>a. Meeting room.
>>IMAO, we don't need this. If somebody can come up with a valid need for
[clip]
>Being one of those that suggested such a thing, I now change my stand
>on this and I agree a meeting room is not necessary, and other
>conference types will have that type of activity.
>DLV to my understanding, wasn't and shouldn't be designed to follow
>other conferences.
>The room idea from me was more for those who have never gone out or are
>extremely scared or un-sure of themselves about appearing in public. It
>would have served as a final step before going out, advice and help if
>requested, and also as a place to talk and mingle and get to know
>others of DLV if it was the first time and didn't know anyone (or to
>re-aquaint themselves with those they haven't seen for a year), so that
>at the next DLV event, the newbie would be more comfortable and
>encouraged to go out.
>Alot of possible negatives go with this idea also: planning, arranging
>the room, cost, being bored, and no one showing up.
>A resturant can and does the same thing. The newbie can come in
>whatever mode that was comfortable to get to know others in DLV.
...
>>Assuming that Las Vegas Lounge does not change over the next year (I
>>have a sneaky feeling it will, one way or another) we maybe offer it
>>as a late-nite after hours option, but not for one of our featured
>>gatherings. Hey, I'm far from a prude, but it was obvious that our
>>people did not like it well enough to stick around.
>Agreed. It should be a late night place for those that enjoy that kind
>of action.
>But remember, that *before* the 'music' began, it was quite a nice and
>relatively empty place and you can have a conversation. Maybe...we can
>use it to meet there in the early evening/late afternoon hours, as a
>staging area, but plan to go somewhere else when the show begins. This
>still supports the lounge in that some will order drinks.
Before the music and such began, it was more or less what it was the
year before, a nice neighborhood bar. IMAO, if they would just get some
consistent food service (barburgers and the like, nothing fancy) they
could easily break even and could keep their pants on, so to speak. :)
Late breaking news: Supposedly there has been some newly-passed
regulation regarding physical contact between "entertainers" and bar
patrons. Stay tuned, film at 11.
>>Daytime dress. Something isn't working here. Since the second year, we
[whack]
>For me it was fear. I always thought its easier to hide in the dark of
>the night, and that daylight reveals more. Make-up and dress is
>different for the day. Only recently have I started to develop my day
>wear wardrobe and day make-up. I'm finding the two are different. Up
>to recently I was more focused on going out at night only.
>One has to also consider what is women's casual day wear in LV to blend
>in better. Many newbies I think prefer the night for the style of
>wardrobe is more attractive.
>Another factor is sleep and prep time. With many staying up all night
>to the early morning hours dancing, gambling or whatever, sleeping till
>the afternoon or late morning would be a normal result. Preping after
>getting up to go do something during the afternoon may be too much of a
>rush. Forgetting to put out the 'do not disturb' sign can also mean a
>brief and shocking interruption.
>>What do we do, gang? Do we make DLV an evening-only thing, letting people
>>totally do their own thing during the day? Do we tweak our activities
[bobbitt]
>Tough question! I think all we can do is provide what can be provided
>for by the volunteers and coordinators who want to do a certain
>activity themselves, and those that want to do the activity will
>hopefully attend. DLV may be too small to have a structure that will
>please all at all levels.
>Or is that what everyone wants, DLV to turn into another conference,
>just that its in LV...a city where one can do alot of other things,
>other than going to a conference?
I really think most of our people appreciate the fact that DLV is not
yet another Fanfair clone and that it is more real-life.
I don't mean to give the impression I'm putting down those things. Some
of them can be lots of fun and quite worthwhile. Many of them, however,
can be repetitive and quite sanitized.
I've said this before many times. If somebody would rather have one of
these instead of DLV, all they have to do is throw a dart blindly at a
calendar and they will be within a month of one of them somewhere.
There's no need for yet another one.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Shopping and such:
Various comments by various people ...
>Whenever you mention shopping at D.L.V., I get this vision of you
>walking down Northampton Mall (local mall here) leading a pack
>of 30 t-girls, all who are just following each other blindly the
>mall, not stopping to shop or go in the stores or anything.
LOL! No, trust me, this is not what happens at all. In a small shop
such as Vegas Girl or Bare Essentials, yes, we take over the place, but
in the malls, everybody scatters, and I encourage people to not shop in
groups. I suggest individually or in pairs, at most.
Mall shopping in groups just does not work. Everybody has their own
things to look for and their own interests.
>I
>know this isn't what goes on, but I wonder if the others get this
>vision and it scares them off.
I don't know. Those who have told me why they did not go cited other
things going on at the time, lack of interest in shopping, and general
uneasiness of shopping in public.
...
>I know many of our girls are still quite afraid of this very public
>thing, but I'm certain that almost all our girls still get all of
>their stuff mail order and don't really want to shop in person.
This is probably the case for at least some of them, yes.
>Mail order is very comfortable and safe.
True, but I'm sure the majority could become comfortable shopping in
real life, and enjoy the heck out of it. Many t* people I know are
hardcore shopaholics.
...
>Also...maybe... shopping wasn't high this year on the list for those
>attending DLV this year, and for those people, they thought of spending
>the time doing something more to their liking than shopping....or saw
>it as a time to get together with others in DLV that they just met or
>haven't seen in a long time, and do something they like to do in common
>with themselves.
I don't know, really. I get the feeling that most of the people who did
not go shopping did not have specific important plans that prevented
them from doing so.
>The budget may also restrict many from spending and shopping or
>attending evening events.
True in some cases, probably, but I would think this would not be
the case for a significant number who skipped the shopping. Besides,
we intentionally hit the places that were with reason as far as $$$
is concerned.
...
As I think back to the shopping trips in 1998 and 1999, those which
"worked" and those on which I've based my expectations of the trips
last year and this year, almost everybody was either dressed down
(pardon my use of that expression), in boymode, or in gg girlmode.
As I also think back (we had part of this discussion on line Friday
evening) to the first two years (1997 and 1998), I don't think anybody
even wore a long dress to the shows. I recently found the archives of
the DLV 1998 mailing list and skimmed them. There were about 10
mailings total, including the War And Peace<tm> issue. The mailings
spoke almost entirely of activities, almost nothing on dress.
Comments?
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Dressing up and down:
>Just a thought on overdressing for the occasion.
>Living here it is much simpler for me to move from event to event and
>change my look as required but what about the new girl who is not that
>good at makeup? One who wants to stay with the group for security
>rather than move around town on their own?
>I can see that I would have a dilemma if I didn't live here with say,
>the buffet, and then dressing for the evening.....especially if I
>didn't stay at the Sahara. I would not have enough time to go back to
>my room, change, do makeup and hair, and then get back to the group
>before they moved on to the next venue.
>This may be a partial explanation for low attendance at the daytime
>events too. I would have to weigh each event carefully making sure I
>had enough time to be ready to attend and travel with the group at
>night.
This brings up a more general question on timing. Is there a perception
that we scheduled activities too closely together? This year I don't
remember any major time crunches, but I'm not everybody.
Comments?
>Seeing from what I have read on feedback the evening events seem to be
>much more popular and rightfully so. So if I was travelling I might
>pass up the buffet and meet everyone after they are done eating and be
>dressed for the evening.
>I am not championing a schedule change by any means but rather just an
>outside reasoning as to why the daytime events may get the low
>attendance. Sleep, other activities, etc. certainly also enter in to
>the equation.
>All in all, DLV is such a wonderful experience so please don't beat
>your head against the wall worrying about filling up the events.
I'm not beating my head into a wall (masochism is not my thing :) but
I want to be sure we don't have lots of people who are missing out on
fun and companionship they could easily have by joining the group for
these events.
>I
>know I speak for everyone when I say we appreciate the time and effort
>you and the others put in to make this event such a success year after
>year!
You're very welcome. I'm still tickled pink with the way this thing has
grown over the years. It was truly an accidental happening, DLV was
never intended to get this big. :)
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Outside comment:
This is excerpted from a note sent to those who inquired about a
(non-t) gathering in Las Vegas this summer for readers of a particular
Usenet newsfroup. Sound familiar? :)
>+To be honest, I'm really worried and disappointed about the number of
>+people who are cancelling. I know there were no commitments, but I was
>+hoping that more people who indicated interest would come through. (I
>+sure hope the same thing doesn't happen with the t-shirts! My dad is
>+planning on making a LOT. More details on that soon.)
>+Also I am going to end up eating the cost of a lot of rooms at our host
>+hotel.
>+So, I guess this is a plea. There are still plenty of a.f.ers planning
>+to come -- still a nice and healthy number and we'll have a great time
>+-- but for those of you on the fence, I'm trying to nudge you. Please
>+come!!!
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Another dressing opinion:
>Annie, let me play your Devil's Advocate here. I think maybe some of
>you more experienced girls are forgetting how it is to have so few
>opportunities to dress. For many of these newer girls, this is one
>of the only times they have to go out in public dressed. They don't
>want to dress down, they want to dress up!
Yes, I believe this is the case for some of them.
>They want to dress up for
>the everyday things, and dress up even more for the fancy things!
... And this is often what is seen at the mainline t* events.
Comments, gang? Do we see a demand for dress-up daytime activities, or
at least activities where non-casual dress is appropriate?
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
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May, 2002, dates to be announced
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