This posting is from: Diva Las Vegas
----------
These are the comments received regarding behavior, dress, and
restroom issues. Only editing was for formatting and removal of
most proper names.
Entries are in no particular order.
. . . . .
Restroom comments:
We are beginning to see more and more of ther "FAMILY RESTROOMS"
being installed, Which is very helpful !
. . . . .
I do support enforcement ot dress requirements, but you need to
lighten up a bit. Having someone travel half way round the world
just to be told to leave is a bit much!
. . . . .
at the Mariage hotel ask to leave the rest room and i quitely did.
. . . . .
As a GG I was stuck up (calmly) for a lady they were trying to
expell from the restroom at the Mirage and they were not nice in
the manner in which they spoke to her, so they decided assumed I
was not gentic and told me to leave as well. I asked for the
manager and they told me to leave the hotel or I would be arrested.
. . . . .
{attendee} was nasty and vindictive after she was told to leave,
but she brought that on herself. Kudo's for stepping in and doing
something about it. That is a job I certainly would not want to do
and I respect those who have to do it. Your damned if you do and
damned if you don't. Thanks for taking care of it.
. . . . .
This year I didn't use the public restroom because at the last
minute I came down with a cold/sore throat and had to cancell my
plans to attend DLV 07. But I have used the restrooms during past
DLV's and have never had issues.
. . . . .
At free zone. Had to, the mens room was full of dykes.
Seriously, at Free Zone. No problem.
At Elvis, can't remember if the restrooms were gendered.
No Problem.
. . . . .
General comments:
My only concern is regarding how the "enforcement" of dress is
being addressed for some DLV attendees. I think there is a way
to approach someone with sincerity about their dressing choices
without being demeaning or cruel. I observed a DLV "organizer"
gossiping to other DLV attendees about a specific attendee in
completely inappropriate ways. It is no one else's business when
these issues arise and the issue should be kept private between
the DLV organizer and attendee. This is the kind of cruel behavior
I expect of insecure genetic females. People come from all over
the world to this venue to be supported in ways they cannot find
support in their daily lives. If they cannot be supported by their
peers then who else can they turn to?
It's easy to get carried away and think we have the perfect
rules that should work for everyone. But I'm a genetic female &
I have to admit I have made clothing or behavior choices that
weren't perfect in my life. It's a learning process for everyone
even for those who are born genetic female. Everyone also has a
different idea of what is feminine depending on our individual
experiences. I actually do support dress and behavior guidelines
and understand the need for enforcement. But what I'm saying is
maybe you want to re-think your approach and perhaps act on these
issues with compassion & integrity.
. . . . .
Would like to scrap the "natural way" This is fine but men must
put it on. I noticed far to many dressed nicely but yet needing
beard cover if it shows cover it. Just more on fashion and
presenting yourself. Example if you have large hands don't wear
bright red polish. Know your strong points and deal with your
weak points.
{organizer} got on one for there dressing. {organizer} was correct
and handled this very well. The individual in questioned gave a
creepy impression to the basic public.
. . . . .
I think the fashion police went too far this year.
. . . . .
You had every right to tell that one to leave. She (he, whatever)
was an embarrasment to the group. You do need to take it easy on
those who are new however, give them a break on their first night
out if you will please.
. . . . .
Surprised at comment on inappropriateness of a halter dress at the
Bahama Breeze dinner.
. . . . .
I was quite dissapointed about the lack of an honest effort to pass.
Most of the gurls were there to dress, but did not really try to
pass. And made me uncomfortable when in a group.
. . . . .
DLV has to better fine-tune its parameters of dress. It is for
most a way to live the fantasy of a male dressed as or being a
female in safe or mainstream venues. But DLV cannot be the venue
to live out other fantasies that are impossible or beyond the
accepted norms of behavior (ie: sex parties) or dress (ie:
costume-play, goth or rave, fairy, witch, S&D, etc). The dress
guidlines are OK as is. Its the expectation of living out ones
fantasy has to be addressed or limited.
. . . . .
and when else wear the issue of dressing i do agree with but the
way it was delt with was totaly out of order this could of been
much better even i was told i only had one button done up i my
top do you understand fashion i live full time and to have someone
tell me how to dress is out of order
monday night i was handed a sheet of paper telling me how i should
dress i have never been so humiliated in my life thankyou and to
finish of you even did the same to reel femail who was with us as
a guest dont you have any brains
. . . . .
There are still a few attendees dressing in T-shirts and jeans to
most events. I would like to see all of these wearing some make-up,
and more femanine dress. This would include pants and jackets as
well as dresses or skirts. If you are going to "go there," go in
style with a beautiful smile and enjoy every minute of it!
The ladies looked more attractive this year than ever in general.
Keep up the effort!
. . . . .
t-girls should be accepted as they are and not have criticism of
their dress (as long as it is respectable), wigs and makeup. We
choose our own particular style and that should be remembered.
Who has the right to say otherwise?
We also choose the age and fashion that best suits our outlook
and feelings. It should be remembered that most of us want to be
noticed and admired, if not then we would probably go for a sex
change and try to merge into the background.
We do not want input from attendees' wives because most of up can
do a better job anyway.
Remember that the word DIVA means "special", "a goddess" so we
should not be told to look like old frumps.
. . . . .
One person apparently refused to follow DLV's reasonable dress
guidelines and went around bad mouthing the organizers and home
in a huff after an organizer asked her to do better. The same
organizer has made suggestions to me in the past and they were
warranted. It seems to me that people should take DLV as a
learning experience and do better each year and for the most
part they are.
. . . . .
There is a lot of conversations about people not dressing their
age or not attempting to look like a woman. Let's focus on the
people that dress and act like whores in public, Keep your asses
covered and your wigs on.
LADIES do not go around bending over to show off your chest. TOTAL
RED FLAG, if someone want's a closer look, date them!
To me if someone wants to wear fashionable clothing,or a
fashionable wig good for them. At least they are wearing them.
In reference to {attendee}, so far I personally have not seen a
photo that reflects the criticism.
Yes, if you are going to dress like a woman,you HAVE to wear makeup,
believe me you natural beauty is not shining thru. There are very
few of us that can claim to "totally pass as a woman", ladies what
about using the verbage, I'm "acceptable" as a woman in public.
<I'm stepping off my soap box now> Thank you.
----------
(This posting was entered by Diva Las Vegas, an external user of MyDLV.)
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Survey comments, part 2 ...
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Survey comments, part 2 ...
by External Poster » Thu May 31, 2007 1:49 pm
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Survey comments, part 2 ...
by External Poster » Thu May 31, 2007 2:45 pm
This posting is from: annie
----------
Here's my personal take on the comments related to behavior,
dress, and restroom items ...
First of all, and this is said with the DLV Organizer's Hat on,
I sincerely believe that those who were empowered to act in
response to issues and incidents of dress and behavior did so
with the best intentions and did the best job they could under
the circumstances.
For those who disagree as to the methods used to enforce our
behavior, dress, and restroom guidelines, please suggest
alternatives. I'm dead serious here. If you know a better way
to do this, please speak up!
Likewise, if you think you can do a better job of assuring
compliance with our guidelines, please volunteer to do so.
The actual behavior/dress/restroom standards, however, and the
guidelines which support these standards, are not going away.
As shown by the surveys over the past few years, and including
the current year, the vast majority of DLV attendees agree with
these guidelines and also support the current level of enforcement.
However, if you have a magic bullet idea to assure compliance,
or maybe a "kinder-gentler" way of dealing with those who do not
intend to abide by the rules, please let it be known.
Having said that, let's talk about behavior, dress, and
restrooms. :)
Please feel free to add to or respond to any of this.
. . . . .
In general, I observed dress at DLV 2007 to be appropriate,
commendable, and in many cases just plain classy, with very
few exceptions.
Others noticed too, as reflected in this comment:
>The ladies looked more attractive this year than ever in general.
For commendable dress, I'll name names. Genevieve, Dayna,
Michelle (NZ), Julie Anne, Deb, Cheryl, Cyndi, Virginia, Ruthie,
Michelle (UT), Eva Marie, JoAnn, I could go on and on and fill
countless lines.
Tony? :) :)
If I didn't mention you I'm not leaving you out, I just started
to rattle off names, and I could continue ad nauseam, and I'm sure
everybody was aware of the classy dressers too.
I do wish that the incidents of appropriate dress could garner as
much attention as those of inappropriate dress! :(
One thing obviously missing this year were survey comments to
the effect of "screaming trannie", "hookers in heat" and such,
indicating that kind of thing was not a major issue this year.
Out of 134 attendees, those whose dress warranted any kind of
action at all numbered only 3, or about 2% of our participants.
Very small minority, one hand with fingers left over.
The intent of any consultation regarding dress or appearance is
to get that attendee in line with the guidelines, so she (or he)
could continue to participate.
Unfortunately, behavior, dress, and restroom incidents get a lot
of attention and absorb a good amount of energy that could be
better spent enjoying DLV! :(
. . . . .
Let's get this first one out of the way early. ...
A number of comments had to do with enforcement of our dress
guidelines, with particular emphasis on one incident. Comments
were mixed, but mostly supported the action taken.
>I do support enforcement ot dress requirements, but you need to
>lighten up a bit. Having someone travel half way round the world
>just to be told to leave is a bit much!
. . .
>{attendee} was nasty and vindictive after she was told to leave,
>but she brought that on herself. Kudo's for stepping in and doing
>something about it. That is a job I certainly would not want to do
>and I respect those who have to do it. Your damned if you do and
>damned if you don't. Thanks for taking care of it.
. . .
>{organizer} got on one for there dressing. {organizer} was correct
>and handled this very well. The individual in questioned gave a
>creepy impression to the basic public.
. . .
>I think the fashion police went too far this year.
. . .
>You had every right to tell that one to leave. She (he, whatever)
>was an embarrasment to the group. You do need to take it easy on
>those who are new however, give them a break on their first night
>out if you will please.
. . .
>Surprised at comment on inappropriateness of a halter dress at
>the Bahama Breeze dinner.
. . .
>One person apparently refused to follow DLV's reasonable dress
>guidelines and went around bad mouthing the organizers and home
>in a huff after an organizer asked her to do better. The same
>organizer has made suggestions to me in the past and they were
>warranted.
. . .
The comments, in general, were in support of the action taken
for the most serious incident, but appear to reflect concern that
things may be proceding in the direction of overzealous enforcement.
On the objective part of the survey, 7 indicated that they do not
agree with the current level of enforcement of behavior, dress, and
restroom guidelines. This is the highest we've ever seen this.
Although this is well down in the minority, it has now passed the
threshold of becoming statistically significant. My concern on this
will be brought up in ORG.
[ DLV organizer's hat on ]
For the record, nobody was asked or told to leave DLV 2007, either
the event as a whole or any specific activity.
There seems to be some misunderstanding, perhaps some exaggeration,
maybe some distortion when passed from person to person to person,
as to what our dress issues were this year, and how they were
handled.
Let's go over, for the record, what these issues were and how
they were handled. It also should be noted that the only venues
in which any enforcement was done were mainstream, shared with
the general public. All were handled in accordance with our
published guidelines.
Also, for the record, no single individual acted unilaterally.
In all cases, multiple organizers were consulted and a consensus
was reached before anything was done.
First item, after multiple complaints were received regarding one
attendee's appearance in mainstream public, this person was called
aside and talked to by one of our organizers. This person chose to
leave DLV early. This was voluntary, and no suggestion was made
that this attendee should leave.
The next two were rather minor. They involved one outfit which
was not size-appropriate, and another which was not appropriate
for the time, place, and circumstance of the activity.
Multiple DLV organizers were consulted (I was one of them) and
the consensus was that the two outfits were borderline for a
mainstream activity such as that, but that no action other than
a constructive chat was warranted. End of story.
There was one report which I'm not including here, since we were
never able to identify the wearer or positively verify the
reports. The person was apparently misidentified twice as two
different individuals.
The report was on the line of "... wearing total boymode except
for a very visible bra and getting lots of stares ..." one
continuation of the report was to the effect "... I asked him [sic]
what the story was and he [sic] said that he [sic] did not have
time to get totally made up and just came as is ..."
I think everybody will agree that this type of dress is not
appropriate for lunch at the Bellagio.
Disagree? Please say so.
A recap of how these were handled is one topic I will be bringing
up to our ORG group.
Yes, the comments were mixed, in support of and in excoriation
of the action taken.
[ DLV organizer's hat off ]
I would invite those who don't think these issues were handled
properly to please volunteer to help out. I'm not being in any
way sarcastic, I'm 100% serious here, volunteer specifically
to be the one called upon to consult with those whose dress
and/or behavior goes against our guidelines.
If somebody has no intention on following our dress and behavior
guidelines, which they agreed to follow when signing up, and
which they were reminded of at check-in, I'm sorry, but DLV
is not for him or her.
I don't know how else to put this.
. . . . .
>It seems to me that people should take DLV as a learning
>experience and do better each year and for the mostpart
>they are.
True. I think most of them do, and I think we also need to
recognize those who have grown and improved over the years.
. . . . .
>We are beginning to see more and more of ther "FAMILY RESTROOMS"
>being installed, Which is very helpful !
Yes, unisex or "family" restrooms eliminate most of the issues
we have. We have yet to see a restroom incident at Suede, right?
I would sure like to see notations of the family restrooms, even
giving their specific locations, added to our Big List of places
to go in LV. You don't need anybody's permission to compile a list,
just do it and send it in. We'll post it on the web site in
conjunction with the Big List.
. . . . .
>at the Mariage hotel ask to leave the rest room and i quitely did.
And that's what you should do. If you are asked to leave, do so,
and you acted properly and set a good example in the process.
. . . . .
>As a GG I [...] stuck up (calmly) for a lady they were trying to
>expell from the restroom at the Mirage and they were not nice in
>the manner in which they spoke to her, so they decided assumed I
>was not gentic and told me to leave as well. I asked for the
>manager and they told me to leave the hotel or I would be arrested.
Unfortunately you got your lesson from the College Of Hard Knocks
as to how things work in Las Vegas. (Years ago, you would have
been shown the back room, nowadays you are just shown the door.) :)
Security will often not be nice. In these cases, it's not their
job to be nice. It's their job to make the situation go away.
When responding to a citizen complaint, security will act first and
ask questions later, if they ask questions at all. They act very
quickly and cast a very large net, and unfortunately it's often
the case that innocent parties are caught in it.
Asking for or demanding to see a manager will do no good. That's
not the way it works. The more assertive you get, the more
aggressive they (security) will get.
The duty manager doesn't care about who did what or who was present
or who or what they are. All he (and yes, it is almost always a
"he") cares about is that security took care of the complaint and
that anybody who was involved (actively or passively, at fault or
innocent bystander) was removed.
Lesson learned: How important it is for everybody to do all they can
to avoid a restroom incident in the first place. When they happen,
nobody wins.
. . . . .
>At free zone. Had to, the mens room was full of dykes.
LOL! :)
>At Elvis, can't remember if the restrooms were gendered.
>No Problem.
Yes, restrooms there are segregated. Actually, during the weeks
prior to DLV, there were some incidents, and talk about a very
draconian policy. We soft-pedaled that and did get any such
policy to be waived for the nights of our major activities.
I heard of no restroom issues or incidents at Elvis'.
I haven't heard if the proposed policy was ever fully placed
into effect.
. . . . .
I really don't know what the author of this comment has in mind.
>Just more on fashion and presenting yourself. Example if you have
>large hands don't wear bright red polish. Know your strong points
>and deal with your weak points.
I don't know if she means more hints to this effect in some of the
web and pre-documents, or something more like practical instruction
during DLV.
As some know, we had a vendor lined up who was to present a couple
sessions "basic face" and "etiquette and comportment" but that did
not work out.
For next year, there is one suggestion (previous messages) on
getting our cadre of vendors to conduct some coordinated efforts
along this line. There does appear to be a demand for this, and
it will be good for their business, individually and collectively.
. . . . .
>There is a lot of conversations about people not dressing their
>age or not attempting to look like a woman. Let's focus on the
>people that dress and act like whores in public, Keep your asses
>covered and your wigs on.
That's what we do, actually. As far as dress is concerned, the
only enforcement that is any way official is due to cases of
inappropriate dress or behavior in mainstream public. For the
"safe venue" activities, no action is taken.
. . . . .
>monday night i was handed a sheet of paper telling me how i
>should dress i have never been so humiliated in my life thankyou
As I said, if you (or anybody) can think of a better way to meet
the objective, please speak up now.
The objective is: 100% assurance that 100% of the attendees who
check in are 100% aware of our behavior, dress, and restroom
guidelines.
The objective is not going away, but if you know a better way of
meeting it, please speak up.
How do we meet this objective?
You tell me, please.
>and to finish of you even did the same to reel femail who was
>with us as a guest dont you have any brains
Although it may not seem fair to some, when we first discussed the
situation back in 2003, it was a clear consensus that our guidelines
need to apply to all DLV attendees, period, regardless of age,
experience, local residence, number of times attended, current place
on the transition track, initial on the drivers license, what may or
may not be or may or may not have been between the ears or the legs,
etc.
Those being gene-blessed or more experienced are expected to respect
our guidelines and to help set the example as to how they are to
be followed.
>and when else wear the issue of dressing i do agree with but the
>way it was delt with was totaly out of order this could of been
>much better even i was told i only had one button done up i my top
>do you understand fashion
This could have just been a friendly heads-up that you had a button
un-done. Or, it could be ... this is not my comment, but I did
observe this a number of times this year ...
>LADIES do not go around bending over to show off your chest.
>TOTAL RED FLAG, if someone want's a closer look, date them!
Unfortunately a few of our people seemed to go out of their way
to attempt to show some boobage where there was none. It appears
to me that those who try this are totally oblivious to the fact
that the effort is not working. >>HINT!<< IT'S NOT WORKING! :)
>i live full time and to have someone tell me how to
>dress is out of order
Now, as to being full-time. Let's see, how do I put this ...
Let me just speak very freely here.
DLV is not for those who think that, for any reason, the rules or
procedures should not apply to them.
Yes, we have people who have been out for decades, and those who
who are post-op and/or fully transitioned, and of those we ask
some help in setting the example and respecting our guidelines,
both in practice and in attitude.
Most who are post-op or full-time do this naturally.
If you're not willing to do this, sorry, DLV ain't for you.
. . . . .
>In reference to {attendee}, so far I personally have not seen
>a photo that reflects the criticism.
We're not concerned about photos here. We're talking about
real-life appearance in mainstream public.
. . . . .
There were some comments about the "too natural" look:
>Yes, if you are going to dress like a woman, you HAVE to wear
>makeup, believe me you natural beauty is not shining thru. There
>are very few of us that can claim to "totally pass as a woman",
>ladies what about using the verbage, I'm "acceptable" as a woman
>in public. <I'm stepping off my soap box now> Thank you.
>Would like to scrap the "natural way" This is fine but men must put
>it on. I noticed far to many dressed nicely but yet needing beard
>cover if it shows cover it.
Beard cover, or rather the lack of it, was mentioned both at DLV
and in feedback a number of times. I honestly think that in all
cases I observed or had called to my attention, they really were
giving it a sincere try, and just needed a little bit more
coverage or practice.
One point that was brought up was that many of our attendees have
only dressed for such things as a group meeting or an evening out
and have not gone for 18 hours or more. Maybe a reminder to touch
up might be effective.
Yes, I know a few were doing a complete take-off and re-do in the
afternoon, and some waited until the afternoon to get made up.
. . . . .
>I was quite dissapointed about the lack of an honest effort to pass.
I know what you mean here, but in almost all cases I think it's just
climbing the learning curve. I think almost all made a conscientious
effort to be presentable, but for some the look just did not work.
We have those of all skill levels and all experience levels at DLV,
and we need to accept the fact that the collection of looks that
are present will be all over the scale, from totally screaming to
totally stealth.
For those who sincerely try, and I really think that well over 90%
of our people this year did, we need to encourage them and help them
grow.
For those who don't try, or don't think they need to try, well,
we've covered that already.
>Most of the gurls were there to dress, but did not really try to
>pass.
Yes, I have to admit that I agree with you that for some, passing
was secondary (or even farther down on the list) to dressing. Some
do consider DLV primarily as an opportunity to dress. That fact is
not gonna change. As long as they do their dressing with the intent
to be presentable and appropriate and are otherwise considerate
toward others, the organizers should not be taking any action.
I would also say that there are a few who tried, knew they were
not all they could be, but were too proud to ask for help.
I really think that the vast majority of our people have advanced
to or surpassed the point at which they "pass at a distance as an
individual" and I think that the effort to do such is all we can
and should expect.
>And made me uncomfortable when in a group.
I hear you, and I have to admit that I've felt this too at times.
I really don't have an answer for you except that some of this
is to be expected and is part of the territory of TG events.
I would even go as far as to say that part of learning how to
survive in the TG community is to accept the fact that you will
be around those who you don't think pass well enough or aren't
as attractive as you might like.
Most of us know some who will only go out with those who pass
and we see the superficiality of it. We don't want this type of
thinking to invade DLV.
Now, as to what to do about it, I probably don't have the answer
that you will like, but I would suggest that EVERYBODY respect the
feelings of others, and try like heck to be nonobvious in public,
as well as try to be more accepting of those who are giving it
a good try but still have a way to go.
We really do need to support those who are climbing the learning
curve.
. . . . .
I feel concern over this next comment, and part of this concern is
that I witnesed it too, and unfortunately I may have been part of
it. I also must agree with the one commenting. :(
>I observed a DLV "organizer" gossiping to other DLV attendees about
>a specific attendee in completely inappropriate ways. It is no one
>else's business when these issues arise and the issue should be
>kept private between the DLV organizer and attendee. This is the
kind of cruel behavior I expect of insecure genetic females.
I know exactly which conversation you mean, and for my part in it,
I offer my sincere apology. My impression at the time was that the
one who first made the remarks did so without having the DLV
Organizer Hat on, but that was obviously not the perception that
you got.
I will bring this up in ORG and I am embarrassed and ashamed that
I was part of it. :( :(
. . . . .
>The dress guidlines are OK as is. Its the
>expectation of living out ones fantasy has to be addressed
>or limited.
I would say "I agree", but that would be too short, right? :)
Sorry this is so long ...
Everybody has a self-image which they wish to project. For many
in DLV, it is not an image that they are used to presenting on a
day to day basis.
For many, this image which they want to project, or if you want to
put it this way, the role they wish to play, is usual and customary
for a woman (or man) of a particular age and size to project under
various circumstances. The intent to do this is what we expect.
For some circumstances it is not, and that's where we draw the line.
For a few examples, over the years we've had multiple people, some
convincing and some not very, try to come off as bar-girl hookers.
At LVL or even NSD that's appropriate. Try it at the Sahara casino
bar? WRONG! We had one assume the role as a nun, and at NSD and
RHPS, yes, it was quite appropriate for those circumstances.
We've had several over the years (all very unconvincing) try to
project the image of being many years younger or many pounds lighter.
It can be very clear that for some, the difference between projecting
a self-image and living out a fantasy is a very thin line!
The line is drawn at the point which the image is not appropriate for
the age/size of the person in question and/or the circumstances are
not appropriate for such a look.
We've made it very clear that DLV is not a "fantasy" event. We will
be changing some wording this year slightly. We need to make it clear,
for example, that "age-appropriate" refers to the physical age of the
body, not some kind of virtual age of the alternate persona. This was
one item which was apparently misunderstood this year.
. . . . . .
>There are still a few attendees dressing in T-shirts and jeans to
>most events. I would like to see all of these wearing some make-up,
>and more femanine dress. This would include pants and jackets as
>well as dresses or skirts.
Hmmmm ... why are my ears burning? :)
>If you are going to "go there," go in style with a beautiful
>smile and enjoy every minute of it!
I really believe that "comfortable casual" attire is appropriate
for most common activities in Las Vegas, including most (but not
all) DLV activities.
I do agree that the face and the hair must be unquestionably
feminine, even in an otherwise dressed-down style. 99% of our
people do need some makeup. I agree. That's just what girls
do and I was witness to one conversation where some very
appropriate "peer pressure" was given in that direction.
And yes, I *DO* like to dress up occasionally when and where
appropriate. I did wear a dress one evening for Pinkfest last
fall. I also did pack a long dress this year, intending it
for the Limo Tour. However, I was running a bit tight on time
and I was to be "on duty", so I decided to go a bit more
casual.
. . . . .
>t-girls should be accepted as they are and not have criticism of
>their dress (as long as it is respectable), wigs and makeup.
Agree with this, the key word here being "respectable" and I might
add that Weasel Word "appropriate" in there as well. That's where
I think most of the DLVers stand.
Disagree? Please say so. Lines are open and operators are standing
by!
>We choose our own particular style and that should be remembered.
One thing that did come out of the discussions back in 2003 was that
the personal style of the individual is to be respected, as long as
it is (here's that Weasel Word again) appropriate.
>Who has the right to say otherwise?
Unfortunately, society does, and it's society as a whole who sets
the norms which define the Weasel Words "usual and customary",
which we insist upon for our mainstream activities.
>We also choose the age and fashion that best suits our outlook
>and feelings.
Not at DLV you don't! At least not for the mainstream activities.
One requirement for DLV is to dress in a manner that is
age-appropriate at all mainstream activities, now clarified to
mean the physical age of the body since birth.
If you're not willing to do this, sorry, DLV ain't for you.
Disagree? Please say so. Lines are open.
>It should be remembered that most of us want to be noticed and
>admired, if not then we would probably go for a sex change and
>try to merge into the background.
Uh, why does having SRS preclude one from being noticed and
admired?
>We do not want input from attendees' wives because most of us can
>do a better job anyway.
WRONG! Some of the best input we can get is from our SOs, either
in person individually, or collectively at an event such as DLV.
One opinion I've found very enlightening over the years of DLV is
from a (male) SO of one of our long-time people, who did indeed
make a brief appearance this year. His opinions are more often
than not, dead-on.
And no, the average TG who has maybe 5 years of experience in the
real world is not going to "do a better job anyway" than the average
GG who has 30-40-50 or more years in public. Sorry, that proposition
is patently false. Reality check needed!
If you are one who wants the SOs present to "butt out" and refrain
from giving feedback and encouragement, sorry, DLV ain't for you.
You will, however, have a lot of trouble finding any TG event where
the input from SOs is not highly valued!
Disagree? If so I want to hear it. Just click "REPLY" or the
equivalent on whatever system you're reading this on.
SOs: Please understand that this point of view is from a very small
and statistically-insignificant minority of the DLV attendees. 99%+
of us value your participation and your support! Besides, you are
just a lot of fun to hang out with! :)
Disagree? Just hit REPLY.
>Remember that the word DIVA means "special", "a goddess" so we
>should not be told to look like old frumps.
"Diva" is also, unfortunately, a synonym for "Prima Donna" in the
sense of implying a degree of selfishness and conceit. I don't
think that's the image we want.
When somebody intentionally dresses in an inappropriate manner
after agreeing many times to dress appropriately, that is pure
selfishness, and yes, unfortunately fits one definition of
"diva". :(
As far as looking like an old frump, you only have to do this if
you want to. It's very possible for a woman of any age and size
to look presentable and yes, attractive.
The process backfires, however, when somebody attempts to dress
in the style of a slim twentybopper to attempt to take off pounds
and/or years. GGs try this too, but they usually learn very
quickly that it does not work.
We all get older, and we're not gonna stop it. We realize this
when the number of candles on the cake starts to set off the fire
alarm. I don't like getting older, and very few do, but it will
happen.
DLV's average age is in the mid 50s, and appropriate dressing
is on everybody's mind. That's the reason we had the Mature
Fashion Roundtable. We don't want to look like Andy Capp's wife
and we don't have to.
Yes, when I first saw the words "Age Rewind" on the Walgreens shelf,
I said "SOLD", and yes, we can do a lot of things to help with our
fitness, our looks, and our outlook on life as we age. Skin care,
phyical activity, keeping up with current fashion, and yes pampering
yourself with a makeover can all help.
Wearing something tighter or shorter just does not work. It looks
bloody ridiculous! Those heads that are turning? They are not
admiring the wearer, they are feeling sorry, or more likely in
Las Vegas, they are laughing. "That is one sorry looking dude!"
is typical of what they are thinking. How do I know this? I've been
with groups of guys as overstated attention-seeking TGs have passed
by!
Disagree with me? Please say so.
The look does not work! Some people seem to need a very strong
>>WHACK<< with the clue-by-four to understand it, but it's not
going to work, and never will work. Tautology, as in the Pope
being Catholic!
. . . . .
Comments, gang?
----------
(This posting was entered by annie, an external user of MyDLV.)
----------
Here's my personal take on the comments related to behavior,
dress, and restroom items ...
First of all, and this is said with the DLV Organizer's Hat on,
I sincerely believe that those who were empowered to act in
response to issues and incidents of dress and behavior did so
with the best intentions and did the best job they could under
the circumstances.
For those who disagree as to the methods used to enforce our
behavior, dress, and restroom guidelines, please suggest
alternatives. I'm dead serious here. If you know a better way
to do this, please speak up!
Likewise, if you think you can do a better job of assuring
compliance with our guidelines, please volunteer to do so.
The actual behavior/dress/restroom standards, however, and the
guidelines which support these standards, are not going away.
As shown by the surveys over the past few years, and including
the current year, the vast majority of DLV attendees agree with
these guidelines and also support the current level of enforcement.
However, if you have a magic bullet idea to assure compliance,
or maybe a "kinder-gentler" way of dealing with those who do not
intend to abide by the rules, please let it be known.
Having said that, let's talk about behavior, dress, and
restrooms. :)
Please feel free to add to or respond to any of this.
. . . . .
In general, I observed dress at DLV 2007 to be appropriate,
commendable, and in many cases just plain classy, with very
few exceptions.
Others noticed too, as reflected in this comment:
>The ladies looked more attractive this year than ever in general.
For commendable dress, I'll name names. Genevieve, Dayna,
Michelle (NZ), Julie Anne, Deb, Cheryl, Cyndi, Virginia, Ruthie,
Michelle (UT), Eva Marie, JoAnn, I could go on and on and fill
countless lines.
Tony? :) :)
If I didn't mention you I'm not leaving you out, I just started
to rattle off names, and I could continue ad nauseam, and I'm sure
everybody was aware of the classy dressers too.
I do wish that the incidents of appropriate dress could garner as
much attention as those of inappropriate dress! :(
One thing obviously missing this year were survey comments to
the effect of "screaming trannie", "hookers in heat" and such,
indicating that kind of thing was not a major issue this year.
Out of 134 attendees, those whose dress warranted any kind of
action at all numbered only 3, or about 2% of our participants.
Very small minority, one hand with fingers left over.
The intent of any consultation regarding dress or appearance is
to get that attendee in line with the guidelines, so she (or he)
could continue to participate.
Unfortunately, behavior, dress, and restroom incidents get a lot
of attention and absorb a good amount of energy that could be
better spent enjoying DLV! :(
. . . . .
Let's get this first one out of the way early. ...
A number of comments had to do with enforcement of our dress
guidelines, with particular emphasis on one incident. Comments
were mixed, but mostly supported the action taken.
>I do support enforcement ot dress requirements, but you need to
>lighten up a bit. Having someone travel half way round the world
>just to be told to leave is a bit much!
. . .
>{attendee} was nasty and vindictive after she was told to leave,
>but she brought that on herself. Kudo's for stepping in and doing
>something about it. That is a job I certainly would not want to do
>and I respect those who have to do it. Your damned if you do and
>damned if you don't. Thanks for taking care of it.
. . .
>{organizer} got on one for there dressing. {organizer} was correct
>and handled this very well. The individual in questioned gave a
>creepy impression to the basic public.
. . .
>I think the fashion police went too far this year.
. . .
>You had every right to tell that one to leave. She (he, whatever)
>was an embarrasment to the group. You do need to take it easy on
>those who are new however, give them a break on their first night
>out if you will please.
. . .
>Surprised at comment on inappropriateness of a halter dress at
>the Bahama Breeze dinner.
. . .
>One person apparently refused to follow DLV's reasonable dress
>guidelines and went around bad mouthing the organizers and home
>in a huff after an organizer asked her to do better. The same
>organizer has made suggestions to me in the past and they were
>warranted.
. . .
The comments, in general, were in support of the action taken
for the most serious incident, but appear to reflect concern that
things may be proceding in the direction of overzealous enforcement.
On the objective part of the survey, 7 indicated that they do not
agree with the current level of enforcement of behavior, dress, and
restroom guidelines. This is the highest we've ever seen this.
Although this is well down in the minority, it has now passed the
threshold of becoming statistically significant. My concern on this
will be brought up in ORG.
[ DLV organizer's hat on ]
For the record, nobody was asked or told to leave DLV 2007, either
the event as a whole or any specific activity.
There seems to be some misunderstanding, perhaps some exaggeration,
maybe some distortion when passed from person to person to person,
as to what our dress issues were this year, and how they were
handled.
Let's go over, for the record, what these issues were and how
they were handled. It also should be noted that the only venues
in which any enforcement was done were mainstream, shared with
the general public. All were handled in accordance with our
published guidelines.
Also, for the record, no single individual acted unilaterally.
In all cases, multiple organizers were consulted and a consensus
was reached before anything was done.
First item, after multiple complaints were received regarding one
attendee's appearance in mainstream public, this person was called
aside and talked to by one of our organizers. This person chose to
leave DLV early. This was voluntary, and no suggestion was made
that this attendee should leave.
The next two were rather minor. They involved one outfit which
was not size-appropriate, and another which was not appropriate
for the time, place, and circumstance of the activity.
Multiple DLV organizers were consulted (I was one of them) and
the consensus was that the two outfits were borderline for a
mainstream activity such as that, but that no action other than
a constructive chat was warranted. End of story.
There was one report which I'm not including here, since we were
never able to identify the wearer or positively verify the
reports. The person was apparently misidentified twice as two
different individuals.
The report was on the line of "... wearing total boymode except
for a very visible bra and getting lots of stares ..." one
continuation of the report was to the effect "... I asked him [sic]
what the story was and he [sic] said that he [sic] did not have
time to get totally made up and just came as is ..."
I think everybody will agree that this type of dress is not
appropriate for lunch at the Bellagio.
Disagree? Please say so.
A recap of how these were handled is one topic I will be bringing
up to our ORG group.
Yes, the comments were mixed, in support of and in excoriation
of the action taken.
[ DLV organizer's hat off ]
I would invite those who don't think these issues were handled
properly to please volunteer to help out. I'm not being in any
way sarcastic, I'm 100% serious here, volunteer specifically
to be the one called upon to consult with those whose dress
and/or behavior goes against our guidelines.
If somebody has no intention on following our dress and behavior
guidelines, which they agreed to follow when signing up, and
which they were reminded of at check-in, I'm sorry, but DLV
is not for him or her.
I don't know how else to put this.
. . . . .
>It seems to me that people should take DLV as a learning
>experience and do better each year and for the mostpart
>they are.
True. I think most of them do, and I think we also need to
recognize those who have grown and improved over the years.
. . . . .
>We are beginning to see more and more of ther "FAMILY RESTROOMS"
>being installed, Which is very helpful !
Yes, unisex or "family" restrooms eliminate most of the issues
we have. We have yet to see a restroom incident at Suede, right?
I would sure like to see notations of the family restrooms, even
giving their specific locations, added to our Big List of places
to go in LV. You don't need anybody's permission to compile a list,
just do it and send it in. We'll post it on the web site in
conjunction with the Big List.
. . . . .
>at the Mariage hotel ask to leave the rest room and i quitely did.
And that's what you should do. If you are asked to leave, do so,
and you acted properly and set a good example in the process.
. . . . .
>As a GG I [...] stuck up (calmly) for a lady they were trying to
>expell from the restroom at the Mirage and they were not nice in
>the manner in which they spoke to her, so they decided assumed I
>was not gentic and told me to leave as well. I asked for the
>manager and they told me to leave the hotel or I would be arrested.
Unfortunately you got your lesson from the College Of Hard Knocks
as to how things work in Las Vegas. (Years ago, you would have
been shown the back room, nowadays you are just shown the door.) :)
Security will often not be nice. In these cases, it's not their
job to be nice. It's their job to make the situation go away.
When responding to a citizen complaint, security will act first and
ask questions later, if they ask questions at all. They act very
quickly and cast a very large net, and unfortunately it's often
the case that innocent parties are caught in it.
Asking for or demanding to see a manager will do no good. That's
not the way it works. The more assertive you get, the more
aggressive they (security) will get.
The duty manager doesn't care about who did what or who was present
or who or what they are. All he (and yes, it is almost always a
"he") cares about is that security took care of the complaint and
that anybody who was involved (actively or passively, at fault or
innocent bystander) was removed.
Lesson learned: How important it is for everybody to do all they can
to avoid a restroom incident in the first place. When they happen,
nobody wins.
. . . . .
>At free zone. Had to, the mens room was full of dykes.
LOL! :)
>At Elvis, can't remember if the restrooms were gendered.
>No Problem.
Yes, restrooms there are segregated. Actually, during the weeks
prior to DLV, there were some incidents, and talk about a very
draconian policy. We soft-pedaled that and did get any such
policy to be waived for the nights of our major activities.
I heard of no restroom issues or incidents at Elvis'.
I haven't heard if the proposed policy was ever fully placed
into effect.
. . . . .
I really don't know what the author of this comment has in mind.
>Just more on fashion and presenting yourself. Example if you have
>large hands don't wear bright red polish. Know your strong points
>and deal with your weak points.
I don't know if she means more hints to this effect in some of the
web and pre-documents, or something more like practical instruction
during DLV.
As some know, we had a vendor lined up who was to present a couple
sessions "basic face" and "etiquette and comportment" but that did
not work out.
For next year, there is one suggestion (previous messages) on
getting our cadre of vendors to conduct some coordinated efforts
along this line. There does appear to be a demand for this, and
it will be good for their business, individually and collectively.
. . . . .
>There is a lot of conversations about people not dressing their
>age or not attempting to look like a woman. Let's focus on the
>people that dress and act like whores in public, Keep your asses
>covered and your wigs on.
That's what we do, actually. As far as dress is concerned, the
only enforcement that is any way official is due to cases of
inappropriate dress or behavior in mainstream public. For the
"safe venue" activities, no action is taken.
. . . . .
>monday night i was handed a sheet of paper telling me how i
>should dress i have never been so humiliated in my life thankyou
As I said, if you (or anybody) can think of a better way to meet
the objective, please speak up now.
The objective is: 100% assurance that 100% of the attendees who
check in are 100% aware of our behavior, dress, and restroom
guidelines.
The objective is not going away, but if you know a better way of
meeting it, please speak up.
How do we meet this objective?
You tell me, please.
>and to finish of you even did the same to reel femail who was
>with us as a guest dont you have any brains
Although it may not seem fair to some, when we first discussed the
situation back in 2003, it was a clear consensus that our guidelines
need to apply to all DLV attendees, period, regardless of age,
experience, local residence, number of times attended, current place
on the transition track, initial on the drivers license, what may or
may not be or may or may not have been between the ears or the legs,
etc.
Those being gene-blessed or more experienced are expected to respect
our guidelines and to help set the example as to how they are to
be followed.
>and when else wear the issue of dressing i do agree with but the
>way it was delt with was totaly out of order this could of been
>much better even i was told i only had one button done up i my top
>do you understand fashion
This could have just been a friendly heads-up that you had a button
un-done. Or, it could be ... this is not my comment, but I did
observe this a number of times this year ...
>LADIES do not go around bending over to show off your chest.
>TOTAL RED FLAG, if someone want's a closer look, date them!
Unfortunately a few of our people seemed to go out of their way
to attempt to show some boobage where there was none. It appears
to me that those who try this are totally oblivious to the fact
that the effort is not working. >>HINT!<< IT'S NOT WORKING! :)
>i live full time and to have someone tell me how to
>dress is out of order
Now, as to being full-time. Let's see, how do I put this ...
Let me just speak very freely here.
DLV is not for those who think that, for any reason, the rules or
procedures should not apply to them.
Yes, we have people who have been out for decades, and those who
who are post-op and/or fully transitioned, and of those we ask
some help in setting the example and respecting our guidelines,
both in practice and in attitude.
Most who are post-op or full-time do this naturally.
If you're not willing to do this, sorry, DLV ain't for you.
. . . . .
>In reference to {attendee}, so far I personally have not seen
>a photo that reflects the criticism.
We're not concerned about photos here. We're talking about
real-life appearance in mainstream public.
. . . . .
There were some comments about the "too natural" look:
>Yes, if you are going to dress like a woman, you HAVE to wear
>makeup, believe me you natural beauty is not shining thru. There
>are very few of us that can claim to "totally pass as a woman",
>ladies what about using the verbage, I'm "acceptable" as a woman
>in public. <I'm stepping off my soap box now> Thank you.
>Would like to scrap the "natural way" This is fine but men must put
>it on. I noticed far to many dressed nicely but yet needing beard
>cover if it shows cover it.
Beard cover, or rather the lack of it, was mentioned both at DLV
and in feedback a number of times. I honestly think that in all
cases I observed or had called to my attention, they really were
giving it a sincere try, and just needed a little bit more
coverage or practice.
One point that was brought up was that many of our attendees have
only dressed for such things as a group meeting or an evening out
and have not gone for 18 hours or more. Maybe a reminder to touch
up might be effective.
Yes, I know a few were doing a complete take-off and re-do in the
afternoon, and some waited until the afternoon to get made up.
. . . . .
>I was quite dissapointed about the lack of an honest effort to pass.
I know what you mean here, but in almost all cases I think it's just
climbing the learning curve. I think almost all made a conscientious
effort to be presentable, but for some the look just did not work.
We have those of all skill levels and all experience levels at DLV,
and we need to accept the fact that the collection of looks that
are present will be all over the scale, from totally screaming to
totally stealth.
For those who sincerely try, and I really think that well over 90%
of our people this year did, we need to encourage them and help them
grow.
For those who don't try, or don't think they need to try, well,
we've covered that already.
>Most of the gurls were there to dress, but did not really try to
>pass.
Yes, I have to admit that I agree with you that for some, passing
was secondary (or even farther down on the list) to dressing. Some
do consider DLV primarily as an opportunity to dress. That fact is
not gonna change. As long as they do their dressing with the intent
to be presentable and appropriate and are otherwise considerate
toward others, the organizers should not be taking any action.
I would also say that there are a few who tried, knew they were
not all they could be, but were too proud to ask for help.
I really think that the vast majority of our people have advanced
to or surpassed the point at which they "pass at a distance as an
individual" and I think that the effort to do such is all we can
and should expect.
>And made me uncomfortable when in a group.
I hear you, and I have to admit that I've felt this too at times.
I really don't have an answer for you except that some of this
is to be expected and is part of the territory of TG events.
I would even go as far as to say that part of learning how to
survive in the TG community is to accept the fact that you will
be around those who you don't think pass well enough or aren't
as attractive as you might like.
Most of us know some who will only go out with those who pass
and we see the superficiality of it. We don't want this type of
thinking to invade DLV.
Now, as to what to do about it, I probably don't have the answer
that you will like, but I would suggest that EVERYBODY respect the
feelings of others, and try like heck to be nonobvious in public,
as well as try to be more accepting of those who are giving it
a good try but still have a way to go.
We really do need to support those who are climbing the learning
curve.
. . . . .
I feel concern over this next comment, and part of this concern is
that I witnesed it too, and unfortunately I may have been part of
it. I also must agree with the one commenting. :(
>I observed a DLV "organizer" gossiping to other DLV attendees about
>a specific attendee in completely inappropriate ways. It is no one
>else's business when these issues arise and the issue should be
>kept private between the DLV organizer and attendee. This is the
kind of cruel behavior I expect of insecure genetic females.
I know exactly which conversation you mean, and for my part in it,
I offer my sincere apology. My impression at the time was that the
one who first made the remarks did so without having the DLV
Organizer Hat on, but that was obviously not the perception that
you got.
I will bring this up in ORG and I am embarrassed and ashamed that
I was part of it. :( :(
. . . . .
>The dress guidlines are OK as is. Its the
>expectation of living out ones fantasy has to be addressed
>or limited.
I would say "I agree", but that would be too short, right? :)
Sorry this is so long ...
Everybody has a self-image which they wish to project. For many
in DLV, it is not an image that they are used to presenting on a
day to day basis.
For many, this image which they want to project, or if you want to
put it this way, the role they wish to play, is usual and customary
for a woman (or man) of a particular age and size to project under
various circumstances. The intent to do this is what we expect.
For some circumstances it is not, and that's where we draw the line.
For a few examples, over the years we've had multiple people, some
convincing and some not very, try to come off as bar-girl hookers.
At LVL or even NSD that's appropriate. Try it at the Sahara casino
bar? WRONG! We had one assume the role as a nun, and at NSD and
RHPS, yes, it was quite appropriate for those circumstances.
We've had several over the years (all very unconvincing) try to
project the image of being many years younger or many pounds lighter.
It can be very clear that for some, the difference between projecting
a self-image and living out a fantasy is a very thin line!
The line is drawn at the point which the image is not appropriate for
the age/size of the person in question and/or the circumstances are
not appropriate for such a look.
We've made it very clear that DLV is not a "fantasy" event. We will
be changing some wording this year slightly. We need to make it clear,
for example, that "age-appropriate" refers to the physical age of the
body, not some kind of virtual age of the alternate persona. This was
one item which was apparently misunderstood this year.
. . . . . .
>There are still a few attendees dressing in T-shirts and jeans to
>most events. I would like to see all of these wearing some make-up,
>and more femanine dress. This would include pants and jackets as
>well as dresses or skirts.
Hmmmm ... why are my ears burning? :)
>If you are going to "go there," go in style with a beautiful
>smile and enjoy every minute of it!
I really believe that "comfortable casual" attire is appropriate
for most common activities in Las Vegas, including most (but not
all) DLV activities.
I do agree that the face and the hair must be unquestionably
feminine, even in an otherwise dressed-down style. 99% of our
people do need some makeup. I agree. That's just what girls
do and I was witness to one conversation where some very
appropriate "peer pressure" was given in that direction.
And yes, I *DO* like to dress up occasionally when and where
appropriate. I did wear a dress one evening for Pinkfest last
fall. I also did pack a long dress this year, intending it
for the Limo Tour. However, I was running a bit tight on time
and I was to be "on duty", so I decided to go a bit more
casual.
. . . . .
>t-girls should be accepted as they are and not have criticism of
>their dress (as long as it is respectable), wigs and makeup.
Agree with this, the key word here being "respectable" and I might
add that Weasel Word "appropriate" in there as well. That's where
I think most of the DLVers stand.
Disagree? Please say so. Lines are open and operators are standing
by!
>We choose our own particular style and that should be remembered.
One thing that did come out of the discussions back in 2003 was that
the personal style of the individual is to be respected, as long as
it is (here's that Weasel Word again) appropriate.
>Who has the right to say otherwise?
Unfortunately, society does, and it's society as a whole who sets
the norms which define the Weasel Words "usual and customary",
which we insist upon for our mainstream activities.
>We also choose the age and fashion that best suits our outlook
>and feelings.
Not at DLV you don't! At least not for the mainstream activities.
One requirement for DLV is to dress in a manner that is
age-appropriate at all mainstream activities, now clarified to
mean the physical age of the body since birth.
If you're not willing to do this, sorry, DLV ain't for you.
Disagree? Please say so. Lines are open.
>It should be remembered that most of us want to be noticed and
>admired, if not then we would probably go for a sex change and
>try to merge into the background.
Uh, why does having SRS preclude one from being noticed and
admired?
>We do not want input from attendees' wives because most of us can
>do a better job anyway.
WRONG! Some of the best input we can get is from our SOs, either
in person individually, or collectively at an event such as DLV.
One opinion I've found very enlightening over the years of DLV is
from a (male) SO of one of our long-time people, who did indeed
make a brief appearance this year. His opinions are more often
than not, dead-on.
And no, the average TG who has maybe 5 years of experience in the
real world is not going to "do a better job anyway" than the average
GG who has 30-40-50 or more years in public. Sorry, that proposition
is patently false. Reality check needed!
If you are one who wants the SOs present to "butt out" and refrain
from giving feedback and encouragement, sorry, DLV ain't for you.
You will, however, have a lot of trouble finding any TG event where
the input from SOs is not highly valued!
Disagree? If so I want to hear it. Just click "REPLY" or the
equivalent on whatever system you're reading this on.
SOs: Please understand that this point of view is from a very small
and statistically-insignificant minority of the DLV attendees. 99%+
of us value your participation and your support! Besides, you are
just a lot of fun to hang out with! :)
Disagree? Just hit REPLY.
>Remember that the word DIVA means "special", "a goddess" so we
>should not be told to look like old frumps.
"Diva" is also, unfortunately, a synonym for "Prima Donna" in the
sense of implying a degree of selfishness and conceit. I don't
think that's the image we want.
When somebody intentionally dresses in an inappropriate manner
after agreeing many times to dress appropriately, that is pure
selfishness, and yes, unfortunately fits one definition of
"diva". :(
As far as looking like an old frump, you only have to do this if
you want to. It's very possible for a woman of any age and size
to look presentable and yes, attractive.
The process backfires, however, when somebody attempts to dress
in the style of a slim twentybopper to attempt to take off pounds
and/or years. GGs try this too, but they usually learn very
quickly that it does not work.
We all get older, and we're not gonna stop it. We realize this
when the number of candles on the cake starts to set off the fire
alarm. I don't like getting older, and very few do, but it will
happen.
DLV's average age is in the mid 50s, and appropriate dressing
is on everybody's mind. That's the reason we had the Mature
Fashion Roundtable. We don't want to look like Andy Capp's wife
and we don't have to.
Yes, when I first saw the words "Age Rewind" on the Walgreens shelf,
I said "SOLD", and yes, we can do a lot of things to help with our
fitness, our looks, and our outlook on life as we age. Skin care,
phyical activity, keeping up with current fashion, and yes pampering
yourself with a makeover can all help.
Wearing something tighter or shorter just does not work. It looks
bloody ridiculous! Those heads that are turning? They are not
admiring the wearer, they are feeling sorry, or more likely in
Las Vegas, they are laughing. "That is one sorry looking dude!"
is typical of what they are thinking. How do I know this? I've been
with groups of guys as overstated attention-seeking TGs have passed
by!
Disagree with me? Please say so.
The look does not work! Some people seem to need a very strong
>>WHACK<< with the clue-by-four to understand it, but it's not
going to work, and never will work. Tautology, as in the Pope
being Catholic!
. . . . .
Comments, gang?
----------
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Survey comments, part 2 ...
by External Poster » Thu May 31, 2007 5:13 pm
This posting is from: Joan
----------
Dear Friends.
>I do support enforcement ot dress requirements, but you need to
>lighten up a bit. Having someone travel half way round the world
>just to be told to leave is a bit much!
We need to lighten up a lot.
>This is the kind of cruel behavior
>I expect of insecure genetic females. People come from all over
>the world to this venue to be supported in ways they cannot find
>support in their daily lives. If they cannot be supported by their
>peers then who else can they turn to?
Agreed.
>I actually do support dress and behavior guidelines
>and understand the need for enforcement. But what I'm saying is
>maybe you want to re-think your approach and perhaps act on these
>issues with compassion & integrity.
We must be compassionate, and not enforcing, we must emphasize
diversity. we are all beautiful people, the world may not think
so at times. We need to focus on what is in our hearts.
>Would like to scrap the "natural way" This is fine but men must
>put it on. I noticed far to many dressed nicely but yet needing
>beard cover if it shows cover it. Just more on fashion and
We cant hold these things against people. i'm not going to demean
someone because they have beard shadow. I'm not better than anyone
else.
>I think the fashion police went too far this year.
I think so too.
>Surprised at comment on inappropriateness of a halter dress at the
>Bahama Breeze dinner.
I'm surprised too.
>I was quite dissapointed about the lack of an honest effort to pass.
>Most of the gurls were there to dress, but did not really try to
>pass. And made me uncomfortable when in a group.
Why are we so worried about passing? I am not ashamed to be around
people who don't pass. I usually don't pass myself.
>i live full time and to have someone
>tell me how to dress is out of order
I agree with you.
>monday night i was handed a sheet of paper telling me how i should
>dress i have never been so humiliated in my life thankyou and to
>finish of you even did the same to reel femail who was with us as
>a guest dont you have any brains
I apologize.
>There are still a few attendees dressing in T-shirts and jeans to
>most events. I would like to see all of these wearing some make-up,
>and more femanine dress. This would include pants and jackets as
>well as dresses or skirts. If you are going to "go there," go in
>style with a beautiful smile and enjoy every minute of it!
What's wrong with tshirts and jeans, (and PUMPS).
>t-girls should be accepted as they are and not have criticism of
>their dress (as long as it is respectable), wigs and makeup. We
>choose our own particular style and that should be remembered.
>Who has the right to say otherwise?
No one had the right to judge. let's focus on big stuff. body
odor and bad breath, filth or indecency are not acceptable. other
than that, please let's not judge.
>We also choose the age and fashion that best suits our outlook
>and feelings. It should be remembered that most of us want to be
>noticed and admired, if not then we would probably go for a sex
>change and try to merge into the background.
True, let's not pigeonhole ourselves.
>Remember that the word DIVA means "special", "a goddess" so we
>should not be told to look like old frumps.
It's what's inside that counts. Let's not be so worried about the
external.
>It seems to me that people should take DLV as a
>learning experience and do better each year and for the most
>part they are.
Do better at what?
It's normal for people when they are upset about something to talk
about it. I am willing to lend an ear to those who need to vent.
>There is a lot of conversations about people not dressing their
>age or not attempting to look like a woman. Let's focus on the
>people that dress and act like whores in public, Keep your asses
>covered and your wigs on.
Such is true, but let's focus on general decency, not on age.
>LADIES do not go around bending over to show off your chest. TOTAL
>RED FLAG, if someone want's a closer look, date them!
True, let's not get cited for indecent exposure.
>Yes, if you are going to dress like a woman,you HAVE to wear makeup,
>believe me you natural beauty is not shining thru. There are very
>few of us that can claim to "totally pass as a woman", ladies what
>about using the verbage, I'm "acceptable" as a woman in public.
Should you have to wear makeup. i think not. It should be a
personal choice. Why must we be so worried about passing. this
is not supposed to be a masquerade party.
Sincerely, joan here in very hot LV, with freshly waxed eyebrows.
----------
(This posting was entered by Joan, an external user of MyDLV.)
----------
Dear Friends.
>I do support enforcement ot dress requirements, but you need to
>lighten up a bit. Having someone travel half way round the world
>just to be told to leave is a bit much!
We need to lighten up a lot.
>This is the kind of cruel behavior
>I expect of insecure genetic females. People come from all over
>the world to this venue to be supported in ways they cannot find
>support in their daily lives. If they cannot be supported by their
>peers then who else can they turn to?
Agreed.
>I actually do support dress and behavior guidelines
>and understand the need for enforcement. But what I'm saying is
>maybe you want to re-think your approach and perhaps act on these
>issues with compassion & integrity.
We must be compassionate, and not enforcing, we must emphasize
diversity. we are all beautiful people, the world may not think
so at times. We need to focus on what is in our hearts.
>Would like to scrap the "natural way" This is fine but men must
>put it on. I noticed far to many dressed nicely but yet needing
>beard cover if it shows cover it. Just more on fashion and
We cant hold these things against people. i'm not going to demean
someone because they have beard shadow. I'm not better than anyone
else.
>I think the fashion police went too far this year.
I think so too.
>Surprised at comment on inappropriateness of a halter dress at the
>Bahama Breeze dinner.
I'm surprised too.
>I was quite dissapointed about the lack of an honest effort to pass.
>Most of the gurls were there to dress, but did not really try to
>pass. And made me uncomfortable when in a group.
Why are we so worried about passing? I am not ashamed to be around
people who don't pass. I usually don't pass myself.
>i live full time and to have someone
>tell me how to dress is out of order
I agree with you.
>monday night i was handed a sheet of paper telling me how i should
>dress i have never been so humiliated in my life thankyou and to
>finish of you even did the same to reel femail who was with us as
>a guest dont you have any brains
I apologize.
>There are still a few attendees dressing in T-shirts and jeans to
>most events. I would like to see all of these wearing some make-up,
>and more femanine dress. This would include pants and jackets as
>well as dresses or skirts. If you are going to "go there," go in
>style with a beautiful smile and enjoy every minute of it!
What's wrong with tshirts and jeans, (and PUMPS).
>t-girls should be accepted as they are and not have criticism of
>their dress (as long as it is respectable), wigs and makeup. We
>choose our own particular style and that should be remembered.
>Who has the right to say otherwise?
No one had the right to judge. let's focus on big stuff. body
odor and bad breath, filth or indecency are not acceptable. other
than that, please let's not judge.
>We also choose the age and fashion that best suits our outlook
>and feelings. It should be remembered that most of us want to be
>noticed and admired, if not then we would probably go for a sex
>change and try to merge into the background.
True, let's not pigeonhole ourselves.
>Remember that the word DIVA means "special", "a goddess" so we
>should not be told to look like old frumps.
It's what's inside that counts. Let's not be so worried about the
external.
>It seems to me that people should take DLV as a
>learning experience and do better each year and for the most
>part they are.
Do better at what?
It's normal for people when they are upset about something to talk
about it. I am willing to lend an ear to those who need to vent.
>There is a lot of conversations about people not dressing their
>age or not attempting to look like a woman. Let's focus on the
>people that dress and act like whores in public, Keep your asses
>covered and your wigs on.
Such is true, but let's focus on general decency, not on age.
>LADIES do not go around bending over to show off your chest. TOTAL
>RED FLAG, if someone want's a closer look, date them!
True, let's not get cited for indecent exposure.
>Yes, if you are going to dress like a woman,you HAVE to wear makeup,
>believe me you natural beauty is not shining thru. There are very
>few of us that can claim to "totally pass as a woman", ladies what
>about using the verbage, I'm "acceptable" as a woman in public.
Should you have to wear makeup. i think not. It should be a
personal choice. Why must we be so worried about passing. this
is not supposed to be a masquerade party.
Sincerely, joan here in very hot LV, with freshly waxed eyebrows.
----------
(This posting was entered by Joan, an external user of MyDLV.)
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Survey comments, part 2 ...
by External Poster » Thu May 31, 2007 7:42 pm
This posting is from: Joan
----------
>But there is something to be said about looking presentable. It
>means dressing appropriately for one's age and body type.
But is there really such a thing. I think it would be really
discriminatory to tell a large or older person not to wear a
miniskirt. Maybe the world doesn't like it, but I think it is
OK to be different. It's what makes the world a more diverse
place.
>And make-up doesn't have to be bright blue eye shadow, crimson red
>lips and Bozo-red rouge. There are plenty of muted earth tones
>available that perk up the face and cover up flaws in skin tone.
Perhaps, but that should be each person's individual choice. I
would not be ashamed. I may not like it, but I do accept it,
respect it, and affirm it for that person.
>The one thing that, IMHO, is absolutely necessary to be
>"presentable" is a good beard cover and foundation. An obvious
>five-o'clock shadow is never appropriate.
I don't like five oclock shadow. I am undergoing serious
electrolysis. But I have been around a number of people with
serious five oclock shadow. Did I tell them so. No I did not.
I chose to accept them and treat them like human beings, and
accept and affirm them as who they are. It's what's inside that
counts.
>Very few of us are ever going to "pass", but there's no excuse for
>not looking presentable.
True. Being presentable to me is, not stinking of body odor,
not having nasty breath, not having torn or filthy clothes or
shoes, and having a basic sense of neatness. Other than that.
i'm pretty much OK.
hope this helps, joan here in LV.
----------
(This posting was entered by Joan, an external user of MyDLV.)
----------
>But there is something to be said about looking presentable. It
>means dressing appropriately for one's age and body type.
But is there really such a thing. I think it would be really
discriminatory to tell a large or older person not to wear a
miniskirt. Maybe the world doesn't like it, but I think it is
OK to be different. It's what makes the world a more diverse
place.
>And make-up doesn't have to be bright blue eye shadow, crimson red
>lips and Bozo-red rouge. There are plenty of muted earth tones
>available that perk up the face and cover up flaws in skin tone.
Perhaps, but that should be each person's individual choice. I
would not be ashamed. I may not like it, but I do accept it,
respect it, and affirm it for that person.
>The one thing that, IMHO, is absolutely necessary to be
>"presentable" is a good beard cover and foundation. An obvious
>five-o'clock shadow is never appropriate.
I don't like five oclock shadow. I am undergoing serious
electrolysis. But I have been around a number of people with
serious five oclock shadow. Did I tell them so. No I did not.
I chose to accept them and treat them like human beings, and
accept and affirm them as who they are. It's what's inside that
counts.
>Very few of us are ever going to "pass", but there's no excuse for
>not looking presentable.
True. Being presentable to me is, not stinking of body odor,
not having nasty breath, not having torn or filthy clothes or
shoes, and having a basic sense of neatness. Other than that.
i'm pretty much OK.
hope this helps, joan here in LV.
----------
(This posting was entered by Joan, an external user of MyDLV.)
- External Poster
- External
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:37 pm
Survey comments, part 2 ...
by External Poster » Thu May 31, 2007 8:02 pm
This posting is from: kumiko yvonne watanabe
----------
>From my experience in seeing the results of the quality of work
and time spent on make overs (some done on myself), nails, hair,
and wig styling done by the many vendors that have helped dlv
attendees over many years, ALL of them do very good work, and in
my own opinion is worth the cost that was paid for that service.
The transformations that happens on the attendees is significant.
I wish we could have a before and after photos of their work.
One year, I almost didn't recognize a make-over done to Annie,
who was in blonde wig and evening gown. I've also seen nails
done for many dlv attendees and all of them are very well done,
some with beautiful art work.
Also, these venues open their doors to the transgendered
community, providing a needed resource of services, and also
basic necessities. It would be much harder for attendees to
dress properly if these business weren't there in LV, so we
should continue to support them as much as we can.
Lets not forget other venues that has provided discounts for
clothing, wigs, and other items during DLV.
----------
(This posting was entered by kumiko yvonne watanabe, an external user of MyDLV.)
----------
>From my experience in seeing the results of the quality of work
and time spent on make overs (some done on myself), nails, hair,
and wig styling done by the many vendors that have helped dlv
attendees over many years, ALL of them do very good work, and in
my own opinion is worth the cost that was paid for that service.
The transformations that happens on the attendees is significant.
I wish we could have a before and after photos of their work.
One year, I almost didn't recognize a make-over done to Annie,
who was in blonde wig and evening gown. I've also seen nails
done for many dlv attendees and all of them are very well done,
some with beautiful art work.
Also, these venues open their doors to the transgendered
community, providing a needed resource of services, and also
basic necessities. It would be much harder for attendees to
dress properly if these business weren't there in LV, so we
should continue to support them as much as we can.
Lets not forget other venues that has provided discounts for
clothing, wigs, and other items during DLV.
----------
(This posting was entered by kumiko yvonne watanabe, an external user of MyDLV.)
- External Poster
- External
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:37 pm
Survey comments, part 2 ...
by External Poster » Thu May 31, 2007 8:33 pm
This posting is from: kumiko yvonne watanabe
----------
>I don't like five oclock shadow. I am undergoing serious
>electrolysis. But I have been around a number of people with
>serious five oclock shadow. Did I tell them so. No I did not.
>I chose to accept them and treat them like human beings, and
>accept and affirm them as who they are. It's what's inside that
>counts.
Joan, I respect what you are saying, and that is your perspective
and how you think and how you feel. I accpet that. This works
in safe venues.
However in mainstream venues, your opinion is not shared with
most of that community. To mainstream, a five o'clock shadow is
NOT acceptable.
Yes, there are alot of ggs that don't wear makeup and look
like they just got up or having the 'rags'. The thing here
is that in mainstream the ggs that look like they just got
up, or are wearing no make-up and just wearing a tee and jeans,
are STILL acceptable as females by the people that are around
them.
We as transgendered, M to F crossdressers, don't have that
advantage of the physical appearence that ggs have. Even the
ggs that look like males, its their COMPORTMENT that is a big
factor in how that appearence is accepted or rejected as a
'male in female clothes' than a female. I would say that many
of us don't do the comportment part very well, and we can and
are easily 'read' as a male.
Being read may not be a problem for you, but in mainstream, and
in most of those in that community, being read as a male in female
clothes and not in any way behaving as a female, is NOT something
that is very well accepted. Most will accept you as you dress,
but there are those in society that will take a big offense to
how you look and will take action against you.
You can address the 'freedom of speech' but you cannot force
this freedom on anyone else. They have the freedom to speak
against you if they dis-agree and for right now, in mainstream,
there are those that will speak against you.
This is one reason why being presentable as a female is important
in mainstream venues, and not so much as safe venues.
----------
(This posting was entered by kumiko yvonne watanabe, an external user of MyDLV.)
----------
>I don't like five oclock shadow. I am undergoing serious
>electrolysis. But I have been around a number of people with
>serious five oclock shadow. Did I tell them so. No I did not.
>I chose to accept them and treat them like human beings, and
>accept and affirm them as who they are. It's what's inside that
>counts.
Joan, I respect what you are saying, and that is your perspective
and how you think and how you feel. I accpet that. This works
in safe venues.
However in mainstream venues, your opinion is not shared with
most of that community. To mainstream, a five o'clock shadow is
NOT acceptable.
Yes, there are alot of ggs that don't wear makeup and look
like they just got up or having the 'rags'. The thing here
is that in mainstream the ggs that look like they just got
up, or are wearing no make-up and just wearing a tee and jeans,
are STILL acceptable as females by the people that are around
them.
We as transgendered, M to F crossdressers, don't have that
advantage of the physical appearence that ggs have. Even the
ggs that look like males, its their COMPORTMENT that is a big
factor in how that appearence is accepted or rejected as a
'male in female clothes' than a female. I would say that many
of us don't do the comportment part very well, and we can and
are easily 'read' as a male.
Being read may not be a problem for you, but in mainstream, and
in most of those in that community, being read as a male in female
clothes and not in any way behaving as a female, is NOT something
that is very well accepted. Most will accept you as you dress,
but there are those in society that will take a big offense to
how you look and will take action against you.
You can address the 'freedom of speech' but you cannot force
this freedom on anyone else. They have the freedom to speak
against you if they dis-agree and for right now, in mainstream,
there are those that will speak against you.
This is one reason why being presentable as a female is important
in mainstream venues, and not so much as safe venues.
----------
(This posting was entered by kumiko yvonne watanabe, an external user of MyDLV.)
- External Poster
- External
- Posts: 0
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Survey comments, part 2 ...
by External Poster » Thu May 31, 2007 10:04 pm
This posting is from: Mary Beth
----------
>Wearing something tighter or shorter just does not work. It looks
>bloody ridiculous! Those heads that are turning? They are not
>admiring the wearer, they are feeling sorry, or more likely in
You are exactly correct here.
The other thing about the whole age-appropriate dressing /
deportment / restroom issue is that the various hotels, casinos,
restaurants, nightclubs, etc. don't know what DLV is.
It's not like there's a press release sent out notifying the city
that we're about to descend en masse. All the person who's in
charge at the business establishment knows is that "some tranny"
came in and caused some problem that he or his security staff had
to deal with. This just makes it harder for any other TG in the
future to be able to frequent said establishment without having
to undergo extra scrutiny.
>From a purely sociological perspective, we owe it to our TG sisters
to put our best face forward to the general public. The general
public already misunderstands what we are about. We don't need to
feed into their stereotypes and give them more reasons to hate us
and look down their noses at us.
----------
(This posting was entered by Mary Beth, an external user of MyDLV.)
----------
>Wearing something tighter or shorter just does not work. It looks
>bloody ridiculous! Those heads that are turning? They are not
>admiring the wearer, they are feeling sorry, or more likely in
You are exactly correct here.
The other thing about the whole age-appropriate dressing /
deportment / restroom issue is that the various hotels, casinos,
restaurants, nightclubs, etc. don't know what DLV is.
It's not like there's a press release sent out notifying the city
that we're about to descend en masse. All the person who's in
charge at the business establishment knows is that "some tranny"
came in and caused some problem that he or his security staff had
to deal with. This just makes it harder for any other TG in the
future to be able to frequent said establishment without having
to undergo extra scrutiny.
>From a purely sociological perspective, we owe it to our TG sisters
to put our best face forward to the general public. The general
public already misunderstands what we are about. We don't need to
feed into their stereotypes and give them more reasons to hate us
and look down their noses at us.
----------
(This posting was entered by Mary Beth, an external user of MyDLV.)
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Survey comments, part 2 ...
by External Poster » Sun Jun 10, 2007 11:17 pm
This posting is from: Jamie
----------
No one should be required to dress down to " todays standard level"
girls that dress like boys..
Why bother!! Annie is the best example of dressing down to.. Well why
dress at all she looks like the boy next door. If that is passing?
So be ot.
----------
(This posting was entered by Jamie, an external user of MyDLV.)
----------
No one should be required to dress down to " todays standard level"
girls that dress like boys..
Why bother!! Annie is the best example of dressing down to.. Well why
dress at all she looks like the boy next door. If that is passing?
So be ot.
----------
(This posting was entered by Jamie, an external user of MyDLV.)
- External Poster
- External
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:37 pm
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