From: Diva Las Vegas organizers (dlvorg@geekbabe.com)
Date: Wed Jan 20 2010 - 04:40:53 CST
In this mailing:
Org List
Toward a conclusion
Deejay for Ending Formal
Italian-American Club
Unbundling
Hotel ballrooms
Suggestions
Another opinion
Comments on the comments
Administrivia
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Org List:
This is the DLV 2010 Organizational Mailing List (dlvorg@geekbabe.com)
Replies to this message will be forwarded to the DLVORG list and not
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Toward a conclusion:
This mailing deals with the Ending Formal and the recent
survey. A few unrelated items have come in, and they will
be appearing in subsequent mailings.
Again, I'm asking all of you to please read any near-future
ORG mailings very promptly, as some decisions have to be made
without lingering, and things may be happening fast.
Since there are many disjointed but related sub-topics
contained in this mailing, and the conversation and logic
jumps around quite a bit, I would ask that you please read
all of this mailing prior to responding to any of it.
I've done a bit of "triage" on the incoming traffic,
redirecting the input from three sources to the forum that's
most appropriate. Most siginificant to this group is that a
few of the items which came in response to the survey, which
were more organizational in nature, have been directed here
and appear below.
Overall, I think that the survey was a Very Good Thing. Prior
to the results coming in, we really did not have a handle on
how the Teeming Millions felt about the proposed Ending Formal.
Now we have a fair idea on what their attendance pattern and
spending pattern might be.
. . . . .
As of Tuesday evening we had 51 responses total, most of which
did give somewhat of a YES or NO answer regarding their attendance.
The numbers, shown here, reflect the "Yes/No" and various other
responses:
Definite yes: 25
Qualified yes: 8
No definitive answer: 9
Definite no: 4
Qualified no: 5
As reflected below in the comments to the comments, one
"yes but" was changed to a "no but" as you will see. :)
If we combine the two classes of "Yes" and "No" responses
we come up with a bottom-line peg count of:
Yes: 33
No: 9
If anybody wants to see the summary of the raw data, just
say so and I'll send it. This mailing is much too long
already so I'm not copying it here. :)
Speaking of being too long ... I had originally planned to
include the verbal comments relevant to the activity, but
that would greatly increase the bulk of this mailing which
is horrendously long already. They are all on line in the
archives of the DLV Discussion Forum:
http://www.geekbabe.com/dlv/discold/
(Note that this is a different URL than the main Discussion
Forum page.)
I've quoted some of them in the final item of this mailing,
those to which I want to comment on to the group here. A
couple others of some significance have been included as
separate items in this mailing.
In light of the preponderance of the yes responses I think
this shows evidence of a demand for such an activity at the
stated price point. ...
However, it's a group decision (ours, ORG group) whether or
not we move forward, and I seriously doubt that any consensus
can be reached within a reasonable time. Therefore ...
{taking deep breath ...} :)
We need to vote, and I'm raising this motion to get things
going.
For someone who's thinking "Hey, we already voted!", no
we have not. What we just did was a survey, not a vote,
and our decision is not binding upon it.
Also, the vote we took late last year was on a similar,
but different proposal which was priced lower and did not
include food.
This proposal is fixed-price, food included.
This will authorize Nora go to back to Amy on our behalf
and re-open the discussion toward an activity along the
lines of what was originally proposed, food included.
Notice that the term "Pity Party" is not included in this
motion. Should this motion carry, we, as a group, can then
decide if the Pity Party is to be rolled into the Ending
Formal. Should the motion fail, then the Pity Party fans
can begin plans for either a stand-alone Pity Party, or
a Pity Party combined with some other activity.
(begin motion)
This motion will give Nora the go-ahead to enter into
negotiations with Amy at Glamour Boutique regarding a
proposed Spring Formal, as per our discussions and
with the following guidelines:
Timeframe: Friday evening, ca. 7:00pm to 11:00pm.
Overall theme: "Spring Formal"
Purpose and scope: Final maximum-attendance single-track
going-away activity.
Entertainment: Quality Social Time, possible self-produced
entertainment, possible dancing. Deejay will be provided
by DLV.
Food and beverage: Cash bar, buffet dinner, IAC menu.
Preferred venue: Italian-American club. Proposals for
alternate venues will be considered.
Price point: Will need further discussion if proposed
price is above $60 per person, including dinner.
(end motion)
So, please consider the motion to be open on the floor,
pending a second.
Do we have such a second?
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Deejay for Ending Formal:
Rosada writes:
>If you have entertainment, i.e. live DJ, have you contacted
>any so far?
I'm not aware of any. We really haven't contracted anything
yet. Our motion now on the floor gets things rolling, should
it carry.
>If you are interested I run a mobile DJ business here in
>Tucson and I'm will to provide that service in exchange
>for the purchase of my tickets for me and Dennis. It also
>might cut down on some of the expense of the ending bash.
Thanks very much, Rosada! I think this has excellent
potential should the motion carry.
Although Nora and/or Amy will have the final say on the
in-kind exchange of services, I don't see how anyone
could turn this down.
The only snags I can imagine would be if IAC should
insist on bundling their own deejay with the package,
meaning we pay for it whether we want it or not, etc.
I'm also not sure if you intend on bringing your own
equipment or not, and I'm not sure what, if anything,
IAC has, but I do know that some facilities can get
very picky about who operates their sound and lighting
equipment.
>I may be cheap but I'm damn GOOD! And I have a wide
>selection of music of almost every genre.
IMAO, we should thank Rosada and take advantage of the
talent within the DLV cadre!
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Italian-American Club:
Kumiko writes:
>For some idea of the facilities please see the IAC website
>and gallery:
http://italianamericansocialclub.com/gallery
Thanks, KY.
All, if you want to take a look at the facility that's
proposed for our ending bash, there it is.
It looks like a nice facility, but ...
>It is a nice place for a formal, IF its decorated as such,
>but yes quite private.
.. You brought up a point which I don't think has been
ever discussed in this thread, and that is decorations.
Are any decorations planned for this activity?
>I feel the same with Ginger and Kay: to attend "but only because
>of a sense of obligation" and "likely want to leave very early"
>which for me means only socializing, and not dressed in formal,
>nor paying for dinner. If we are not allowed to attend
>because of non-payment for dinner, then let be as such.
It's my understanding that it will be $55-60 "just to walk
through the door", and that attending without paying the
toll will not be allowed.
One major gripe about the mainline TG conventions is that
attendees often end up paying for things that they do not
wish to do and food that they don't wish to eat.
This is one thing I think should be avoided, as much as is
possible, for DLV.
>Considering the meal value comparisons, Encore and Bellagio
>buffets is less than the $55 required and a whole different
>world of food.
>The formal idea is still good, this may not be the issue here
>for those voicing their choice.
>Its using the IAC and cost of their services and food and venue
>of choice for the final night of DLV.
It is indeed a high-priced evening! This is my main concern
with the proposed affair.
>Like Ginger, other venues can reduce this price like BB, and
>even Trevi, where the cost is what you are paying as food,
>drinks, and service. I beleive both can handle the formal
>gown theme, and BB has the banquet side room, Trevi the
>second floor.
Should the motion fail to carry, yes, we can circle back
to either of your ideas, either doing a BB (or some other
restaurant) with a formal theme, or adopt a formal theme
to the Trevi dinner on Wednesday, with Michelle's buy-in,
of course.
>For those that can bring gowns in their luggage, then that
>is great for them. I have enough bringing essential casual
>stuff. I don't have the luxury of packing a gown with special
>handling and accessories that will be for only the gown like
>purse heels and jewelry just for one night, plus added cost
>in number of luggage or shipping,
>Also I too am not into formal dress up as in long gowns and
>formal dinners and neither into dancing at that event.
I think it's evident that the majority of DLVers do like to
dress up. Most have at least one outfit which would be
appropriate to wear to something like this. I think that
offering activities where it's not only acceptable to
dress up a bit, but where dressy/formal attire is expected
is a Good Thing<tm>.
As for dancing -- I've seen it work at some TG events and
totally bomb at others! Yes, some are indeed hung up about
dancing with another TG. That's kind of a fact of life in
the TG community. :)
>It also reminds me of what is offered at convention
>dinner/dance/social evenings.
In my not so humble opinion, the proposed activity at the
IAC "approaches the line" (of what is too convention-ish
for DLV) but does not cross it. Should this same proposed
activity be in a hotel ballroom, however, I would say that
it would be over the line. I've commented more about this
below.
I think that DLV should continue with the strategy of
providing the attendees with what they can't get at Be
All or Colorado Goldrush and avoid the things that are
oh-so-common at the mainline TG events. People who really
dig the, uh, yes, I'll say it, Rubber Chicken Banquet
already have several options. :)
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Unbundling:
Rosada writes:
>Have we considered having the dinner and the formal dance
>two separate events altogether. Everyone makes their own
>dinner plans in groups, or as singles, then we all meet
>later at the location for the dance. That way everyone pays
>what they feel they can afford for dinner, and then pay
>for the entry to the dance. I only ask because I can recall
>seeing this approach mentioned. -
That would be along the line of our original IAC motion,
which was turned down by the PTB, where din-din at the IAC
was an option in addition to dinner on one's own.
Should the open motion fail to carry, we can visit options
along this line, although I don't think that IAC will be
a venue option for a stand-alone Pity Party or dancing
activity since they apparently want to bundle food into
the package.
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Hotel ballrooms:
Suzane writes:
>Note I do disagree that a Hotel Ball room would NOT work.
I'm afraid we may have to agree to disagree on this one. :)
>It would be OUR Room and parking would be available, Most of
>the Newer hotels have Bath rooms VERY CLOSE to the "Ball Rooms"
>and that would help with that potential issue.
One of my number-one, absolute highest-priority goals for
DLV is to be absolutely sure that Diva Las Vegas remains the
unique event it's always been and never, ever, morphs into
yet another cookie-cutter TG convention of the "Dream" model!
The use of a rented hotel ballroom is one of the "red flags"
that's been cited over the years that indicates movement in
that direction. Other "red flags" are such things as paid
registration, a vendor hall, keynote speakers, etc.
>I would leave it up to the attendees as to whether WERE
>an event is held makes it like other "TG Conferences" or
>not. For my money it is HOW the event works , is structured,
>and RUN / Operated that make up the important differences.
I'm not going to summarily poo-poo any proposal which uses
a hotel ballroom -- I'm willing to listen and consider.
However, it's gotta be an absolutely super activity in
all other respects to get my support!
For the current proposal at the IAC, you can count me in.
I'm comfortable at a place like that, and I'm sure I will
find something I'll enjoy on the buffet. Yes, I also like
to dress up a bit, when and where appropriate. However, if
that activity should somehow be fork-lifted into the Moapa
Room at {fill in a hotel}, I would probably skip it. :(
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Suggestions:
Cami Farr (not an ORG member) writes:
>Yes, I would be interested in a Friday night formal gathering.
>Do have a couple of suggestions:
>1. Do a regular sit down dinner with 2 or 3 dinner options.
>This will provide for tables and seating for everyone. Brings
>the group together around a stage for the entertainment and
>awards portion.
>2. Have a drawing for free attendance at the next DLV. (Yes, I
>know it is already free but a big certificate would be cute).
Uh ... ??? :)
>3. Don't do it someplace where we are all hidden away. Last year
>there were some great dinners out and about and Vegas has some
>lovely venues with banquet rooms that are tied to a restaurant.
I consider the room we would have at IAC to be just that, and
this is similar to what we had for a number of years at
Carluccio's and close to what we've had at Bahama Breeze.
>Being this dressed up I don't want to go to a bar (and please
>this is no complaint) like we generally do for the kick off.
>4. Plan to show DLV photos with projector at the {event}.
>People will love it.
Anybody want to take this one on as a project? :)
>Great idea and a lovely ending to a super week.
>Can't wait.
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Another opinion:
JoAnn writes (first-person, no quoting):
Like the idea of a formal event
Like the idea of some type of entertainment such like at
Pity Party Like having a bar / at least wine available.
Music not a requirement Meal not a requirement, but if
affordable-- great.
Venue needs to be relatively close to the Strip.
The price point is really $45.00 for me, although I could
pay more. I don't see getting the value above the $45.00.
The event could happen, but may need a couple of sponsors.
As an alternative to the current "possible" event, I
suggest looking to having a formal dress evening plus
entertainment for $20.00 person. Then if there is "bar
food" with several items at $7 per small plate and drinks
at $5 then a "thumbs up" for me.
. . . . .
Thanks, Joann.
The prices you cite, $45 and $20, would most definitely
attract more of our attendees than the $55-60 price for
the proposed Ending Formal.
Should the motion above fail to carry, we can certainly
go down this road.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Comments on the comments:
Here are my comments in response to those received on our
recent survey.
. . . . .
>But if you try to keep the cost down no one will end up
>being happy.
This reflects Nora's concern in a recent mailing. She
expected far more b*tching if we tried to go with an
abbreviated menu, and I tend to agree.
>Like all thing with Div there sould be a second option
>for those who are not interested in spending.
I have very mixed feelings on this.
Should our motion carry and plans go forward, I think we
need to support the activity as much as we can.
Unfortunately, this most likely means that we do not, at
least prior to sign-up and pay-up time, give the attendees
a "path of less resistance" and an excuse to skip what's
intended to be a maximum-attendance Quality Social Time
activity.
There does appear to be a demand for this activity, but I
have several concerns about it being the best option for
our ending evening as a single-track activity.
. . . . .
Ginger writes:
(Note: See follow-up item below as well.)
>Kay and I will attend, but only because of a sense of
>obligation.
I do understand that this puts you and others in somewhat
of a bind.
With the food included whether you want it or not, I would
not blame you or anyone if you should choose to skip it.
I realize that it's intended to be a maximum-attendance
affair, but with the price point as such, I don't think
we can count on an absolute maximum turnout. I can see it
attracting enough of a following to make it a success,
but not as many as would be possible with a more reasonable
price tag.
>I think the cost is excessive for the event and what it
>offers. When I spend $110 plus for dinner I want something
>special, ...
Broken record (stuck CD) mode. This (the price point) is
the most-cited downside of this activity.
>I originally proposed finding a better gay or gay friendly
>bar and working with them to sponsor a "gay-prom" theme.
>That never got any interest, but it would have offered a
>dress up venue for those who wanted to dress up and
>carried no risk.
Should the above motion fail, I think this is still a
possibility, should someone take the initiative to do
the legwork and make the arrangements. The place that
comes to mind immediately is the Escape Lounge, under
the same management as Goodtimes.
However, I don't think we can expect a maximum turnout
since we do have a number of regular attendees who do
not like the "alternative" places and would probably
skip it.
>I do know that spring prom themes have gone over well at
>two gay bars in the vicinity of where I live.
As I've noted before, we've had two recurring "prom" theme
events in our area, although the Groundhog Prom has turned
into more of a Freakers Ball (y'all) than a true "prom"
type gathering.
>and possible require some of us to come up with additional
>funds to cover the loss.
My hunch is that Amy will not allow it to go forward if
there is, in her mind, any significant risk of a loss.
. . . . .
Leigh writes:
>LOVE the idea of a formal farewell bash, but at a cost
>closing in on $100 for the evening, I'd have to say "sorry,
>not this year".....
Again, concerns about the price point.
. . . . .
Danielle writes:
>I too liked Bahama Breeze, and when it wrapped there was
>still time to make a night of it.
I've always enjoyed the BB, however I do agree than we need
to seek out fresh activities.
>OBTW, $60 for a buffet dinner w/a cash bar and maybe a DJ?
>Where is the money going?
It goes to the Italian-American club.
I would also say that Glamour Boutique should be entitled
to a fair, modest mark-up for handling the arrangements.
>You could have a very nice dinner at just about any
>restaurant in LV for that. With wine.
Yes, you could!
It's really an eye-opening experience for many when they
find out how much those catered meals actually cost!
<warstory>
Prior to DLV, I had been involved in the planning of
two other TG events, the names which would be very
familiar to all of you. At one time in the 1990s I
was stupi^H^H^H^H^Hdedicated enough to volunteer to be
one of those who was to make up any difference should
the event's funds run short. I was absolutely astounded
at what the hotel was charging for the catered meals!
IIRC I estimated it was almost twice what similar
meals could be obtained for at a regular restaurant!
</warstory>
I expect the mark-up at IAC is along the same order of
magnitude.
I also expect that the catered meals in the hotel ballrooms
would be about the same price -- or worse!
. . . . .
Kimberly Kael writes:
>I suspect you know where I stand on this one by now: no,
>I'm not inclined to pay that much for what will doubtless
>be a mediocre meal.
While I do agree with you on the price point ...
It might be worth holding off judgement on the food. For
an example, I was actually expecting a semi-sucky meal at
the recent Rori's Party in Chicago. (I actually checked
the hours of Portillos Hot Dogs up the street from where
I was staying in case I needed some Real Food that night.)
I was pleasantly surprised at the food. I can honestly say
that there was not anything on my plate that I did not
enjoy.
I know we do have a few others on this list who attended
this affair, so they can chime in if they think I'm on
drugs or something. :)
(Yes, I'm very aware of the concerns about the IAC food.)
>I'll be very curious to see how the majority weigh in on
>this one.
The majority of the responses from the Teeming Millions
are in favor of such an affair, even when the price point
was all but rubbed into their faces.
Now, as to how many of them will actually put up their
money ... :) ?????
. . . . .
Two of the best responses to the survey, IMAO. :)
>I don't think I would attend, but my female spirit reserves
>the right to change her mind.
and ...
>Is a blue bird blue? Is the pope catholic? Is Las Vegas
>a city in Nevada? HELL YES, I would love to be able to
>wear my formal ball gown!!!
:)
. . . . .
Sara writes:
>If it's not broken, why fix it? Last year's ending event
>at Bahama Breeze was perfection in my mind. The layout of
>the room, the service (unbelievable) and of course the food
>and beverages were very good as well.
As I said in a direct response, I do enjoy the BB, but I do
think we have a need to keep things fresh, and we've done
BB a total of five years now. Comments from the masses do
indicate that BB was getting repetitive.
Comments in this survey, however, keep citing the BB as
a preferred venue for the ending get-together.
>... spending more money and likely having lesser of a meal?
Again, I would have to agree with this price comment.
. . . . .
"Other Annie" writes:
.. you obliviously cannot please every individual.
(Freudian slip with the typo?) :) :)
Yes, our group is incredibly diverse! Our big challenge,
since day one actually, has been planning activities which
appeal to the broad majority of our people.
. . . . .
Sarona writes:
>however, I believe that many of my friends would find this
>out of their range ...
>... but that actually some other kind of "pity party" would
>be held either with or without formal organization simultaneously
>to the big bash for those who could not afford it.
This is one big conundrum. I think it would be more "fair to
all" to provide an inexpensive alternative of some kind to
the Ending Formal, but knowing how our people behave, the
proposed Ending Formal would not attract enough of a crowd
to make it viable should there be a lower-cost option in the
same timeslot.
. . . . .
>My response to the high end cost of 50-60 dollars is a
>big "NO".
>In all my years of traveling I've never run across a meal
>worth that price yet.
You haven't yet visited Chicago Chop House, Peter Luger's,
or Omaha Prime, I suspect. :) :) :)
. . . . .
Alicia writes:
>We already have a nice kind of bash to kickoff the DLV
>activities and most gurls/girls/guys dress up for it.
>Two bashes maybe a little too match, and in this economy..
>I would rather spend that 55-60 bucks doing other things ...
This is really the first one which says that one big
maximum-attendance thing is enough. Comments?
. . . . .
Holly writes:
>Trying to book a venue that will accommodate a group as
>diverse as ours is a challenge. Those of us who are
>comfortable out and about in the general public must also
>consider our sisters (and brothers) who are not.
Agreed. When we want a maximum turnout, the venue needs
to be comfortable to the most shy of our people. It's much
easier for those who have been out for decades to spend a
few hours in what they might consider a too-secluded place
than it is for those just peeking out to spend those hours
in a highly-visible location.
>And yes, $50-60 for a meal may sound expensive, but this
>is not just about a meal. This is about us having a time
>to be with others who share our particular love of life.
>This is about reinforcing friendships started or renewed
>during the week.
Very well said.
This is exactly why I'm planning to attend in spite of the
price point, and why people like Ginger are (edit: were)
also willing to attend.
>To paraphrase a popular ad campaign... Dinner, $20;
>entertainment, $25; Being with people you care about,
>PRICELESS.
Hmmmm ... Back To The Future here ... :)
http://www.geekbabe.com/dlv/dlv99/howmuch/
http://www.geekbabe.com/dlv/dlv2000/cost/
. . . . .
There are concerns about the food quality ...
Sabrina writes:
>First is the venue, I have heard mumblings that this might
>be at the Italian American club in Las Vegas. I attended
>an event there last year, and while the meeting room was
>adequate, the food was absolutly TERRIBLE! AWEFUL!.
I tried to soft-pedal the venue, trying to steer the answers
in the direction of the theme of the proposed activity and
the price point. However, the word is out.
Anyway, Michelle brings up a very good point on this, two
good points, actually ...
Michelle (NZ) writes:
>There a saying that goes along the lines that perception
>is truth and equally if you talk something down enough it
>will be as bad as expected!
>Now I have no idea what the food will be like at the Italian
>American Centre nor do I know what the facilities are like.
>But given the "bad press" this place is getting already,
>selling this to the wider attendee base may be difficult.
This is now two who have expressed displeasure with the food
at the IAC. Trying to look for the other side, I have yet to
hear anyone rave about it!
Yes, word is out about this, and it can only spread in real
time as the days of DLV give many opportunities to converse.
If there's a general perception that "the food sucks", I can
envision a significant ship-jumping, meaning those who had
signed up will cancel at the last minute, or simply say
nothing and fail to pay and fail to show.
>No one has stated what the minimum number will be but lets
>assume its 50 and we get 60 or so signing up. Will all of
>the sixty go through and pay or will there be drop off to
>under the magic threshold??
There will always be fallout at every checkpoint or hoop
jump. That's a fact of life in the TG community. We have
years of experience, and can usually predict, usually that
is, the number who will actually follow through, pay, and
show up.
However (comma) if the word spreads that "the food sucks"
then yes, we could have a much higher than predicted of
a fall-out rate. :(
>I see risks around this because of the cost, the up front
>payments and the apparent indifference from many about
>attending.
Agreed.
Had this survey resulted in anything less than the numbers
we have seen, I would say that we should probably not go
ahead with it. However. I think the numbers clearly show
that the demand is there, so we need a solid group decision
as to go or no-go.
>Packing and carrying gowns has never been a problem even
>the fancy ones.
This has been cited by critics of the proposal, and quite
honestly I don't see what the issue is. If you can carry
a gown from NZ, certainly Statesiders can, and many will
do it each year. I've never had trouble with carrying a
long dress in a garment bag, folding it over, and packing
it in a suitcase.
>From a DLV perspective this approach is sort of a
>departure from anything in the past. It is the sort of
>activity that would be expected at a traditional TG
>conference.
I agree that this is probably the most convention-ish
activity that's ever been proposed for DLV. However, as
it sits now I'm comfortable with it and I don't see it
as being on the slippery slope of DLV becoming yet another
Be-All clone. I really don't see this as being that much
different than say the side dining room at Carluccio's.
However, as I've said elsewhere, the "slippery slope"
might be just out of sight over the horizon! :)
>... this won't appeal to those looking for exposure ...
Speaking very freely here, I don't think it's too much to
ask, to request that those who crave public exposure spend
1-2 hours to add what they can to a maximum-attendance
activity, for the good of the program as a whole. We do
need the active participation of the more gregarious
individuals as part of our mix.
However, when the price tag is high, I'm not going to
blame anyone if they choose to skip it.
. . . . .
Susan Rogers writes:
>I think that the idea of a formal is a good one. But not
>for the closing event. Not inclusive enough. No I would
>not attend. I'm a fan of using Bahama Breeze.
Another request for the Bahama Breeze.
So far in this survey I have yet to hear anything critical
of the Bahama Breeze. Should this motion fail, this might
be a good one to circle back to.
. . . . .
>please remember that it costs a lot to look this cheap
Uh ... ???? :)
. . . . .
And Ginger adds ...
>Earlier I wrote to say I'd likely come out of a sense of
>obligation, ... I had the opportunity to discuss the
>tentative schedule and plans for DLV with her this morning.
>She said that she definitely did not want to attend for a
>variety of reasons. To keep peace at home we will likely
>be a no show.
One thing we need to consider is the dynamics of couple
attendance and group attendance, where more than one person
constitute a singular entity. For a couple, the price would
not be $55-60, but $110-120 and in most cases, both must
want to attend, or we lose both of the potential participants.
Groups are the same, but with higher numbers. Groups tend
to be glued together, and unless there's a consensus, we
lose all of them. That's just the way things work!
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
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